Revolting Youths

rue_d_etropal · Post by **rue_d_etropal** » 10 Dec 2010, 10:08

Having large debts such as student loans does not necesarily make people poorer. Also I wonder if Governmrents do actually have more power as those with student loan debts could just refuse to pay them back, on mass, and it is very difficult to get blood out of a stone. I also wonder how many have thought about the possibility of making themselvs bankrupt, if they find themselves without suitable well paid jobs.
It is those with spare money, sitting in bank accounts who have more to lose in the future, as governments could restrict the amount of money you can access.
It also annoys me that universities are promoted as places to go so that you can ultimately make more money. Being a student is fun, hard work and a good place to learn how to live independantly from family. In my experience those who go onto higher education tend to be more independant and tend not to continue living at home with their parents.
Non scientific courses are being targetted as not being worthwhile to fund, but the trend towards degree courses for proffessions such as nursing is doing a lot more harm. Not only is this making this proffession more over qualified than it needs to be, but it is also impossible to go onto nursing if you have already completed a different degree course at university. It would make more sence to create something like PGCE for teaching, but suitable for basic nursing entry.
Finally, along same lines as promoting higher education leading to better paid jobs. Some courses started say 5 years ago, were 'sold' on the basis that they qualified the studend for certain proffessions such as the police, and now those services are being cut, the jobs are not there. Could be argued the future crash wasn't predictable, but it the universities were more intersted in getting the students rather than warning them that there were no guarantees.

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 10 Dec 2010, 10:14

Of course the whole thing will unravel when BAU thing stops and a great many people no longer earn more than £21k.

One of the late concessions was to increase the £21k figure in line with earnings. Has it been said that it could also decrease in line with earnings? No, that is unimaginable

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 10 Dec 2010, 10:25

JohnB · Post by **JohnB** » 10 Dec 2010, 10:58

We're going through a financial crisis where one of the causes was encouraging debt. Rather than learning the lesson, it's being encouraged. Go to university and get into debt, buy a house and get more debt, insulate your house on the Green Deal and get into debt. There may be some protection in these arrangements, but it just encourages the culture of debt that got us into this mess, and is totally the opposite of what we endlessly discuss here about preparing for PO and TEOTWAWKI.

Lord Beria3 · Post by **Lord Beria3** » 10 Dec 2010, 11:28

Interesting to note how the protests are driven by schoolchildren, often from impoverished inner-city areas of London. It seems improbable that these NEETS would go to university anyway.

What I find interesting is how this vague 'movement' will morphe now that the tuition fees have gone through. Are we seeing a new era of extra-parliamentary social-network organised movement by the young?

Its a little bit like the turn of the 20th century and the emergence of the anarchist and militant socialist movements.

DominicJ · Post by **DominicJ** » 10 Dec 2010, 11:41

I can only repeat, the US has a much freer system than we do, the Best Universities in the world charge the highest fees in the world and the local community colleges are much cheaper than our low level universities.

The poor arent left behind, if your really that clever, the best universities are more than happy to cover your course fees, room, board, clothing and beer money.
Can you get that in the UK? Not a chance.

woodpecker · Post by **woodpecker** » 10 Dec 2010, 11:48

DominicJ wrote:I can only repeat, the US has a much freer system than we do, the Best Universities in the world charge the highest fees in the world and the local community colleges are much cheaper than our low level universities.

The poor arent left behind, if your really that clever, the best universities are more than happy to cover your course fees, room, board, clothing and beer money.
Can you get that in the UK? Not a chance.

They can only cover fat fees and more for a few students because they have very wealthy foundations controlling large pots of money built up over many decades and funded by many, many billionaires. Try finding the same in the UK.

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 10 Dec 2010, 12:01

The USA is a deeply divided society where the rich are very rich and the poor very poor. A good rule of thumb is:

Look how the US does it and do the opposite.

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 10 Dec 2010, 12:14

Good reporting from the grauniad:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/education/blo ... rmath-live

And just look at the police horse charge:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11962905

Unjustified. Provocative. This is our police

Lord Beria3 · Post by **Lord Beria3** » 10 Dec 2010, 12:29

The police get blamed either way... don't have a presence and you have the riot at the Tory HQ, try to stop the violence and you get people like Biff moaning.

Where the condemnation of the violent youths (they weren't students) who clearly saw the whole thing as a opportunity to smash windows and have a riot?

Whether you are a republican or a monarchist, surrounding a harmless middle aged couple and screaming abuse is just plain wrong. If this is what you are applauding, I have a deep fear about how these people will respond when the oil prices skyrocket beyond their financial reach, when the food supplies run out.

Clearly the dark imaginations of jonny2mad and other survivalists of anarchy and chaos aren't quite as silly as initially proclaimed by the TT mafia. Indeed, that appears to be our future.

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 10 Dec 2010, 12:42

Lord Beria3 wrote:you get people like Biff moaning.

I never condone any violence. What I see in the BBC video is police horses charging into a crowd of kids who are doing nothing wrong. I don't condone the subsequent violence but I certainly understand it.

And what about the police chief congratulating Prince Charles's armed protection force for their restraint. What! Did he expect them to shoot someone? Is such a possibility even conscionable?

JohnB · Post by **JohnB** » 10 Dec 2010, 12:44

Lord Beria3 wrote:Clearly the dark imaginations of jonny2mad and other survivalists of anarchy and chaos aren't quite as silly as initially proclaimed by the TT mafia. Indeed, that appears to be our future.

Maybe the "TT mafia" are trying to do things to make sure this doesn't happen, rather than sitting on their arses in front of a computer revelling in thoughts of future chaos and violence. If they don't succeed it will probably be because of too much apathy.

I must admit I've got a lot of sitting on my arse in front of a computer to do to move on my Transition plans, but someone's got to do it!

Lord Beria3 · Post by **Lord Beria3** » 10 Dec 2010, 13:08

What I see in the BBC video is police horses charging into a crowd of kids who are doing nothing wrong. I don't condone the subsequent violence but I certainly understand it.

What you appear to be ignoring is that gangs of kids were going around smashing windows, desecrating the Cenotaph and putting graffiti on Churchill! Yes, innocent students got bloodied which is a shame but probably inevitable when others are causing mayhem.

Police tactics are questionable, but if a fairly significant minority of young people are intent on violence, there is only so much they can do.

Regarding TT, my point is this. Some members were cheerleading the scenes at the Tory HQ as somehow progressive and a sign of the people revolting. What me and Ludwig were trying to say is that once violence becomes normal, it will only be a matter of time before in the event of petrol shortages or food shortages, the same mob will turn on innocent people. Anarchy is not in the interests of anyone of us, if we want a better future.

Justifying violence is a certain way of destroying what you are trying to achieve in TT - which I support btw.

contadino · Post by **contadino** » 10 Dec 2010, 13:26

Lord Beria3 wrote:TT - which I support btw.

Who'd have thought? Cosa Vostra

Ludwig · Post by **Ludwig** » 10 Dec 2010, 13:27

JohnB wrote:
Lord Beria3 wrote:Clearly the dark imaginations of jonny2mad and other survivalists of anarchy and chaos aren't quite as silly as initially proclaimed by the TT mafia. Indeed, that appears to be our future.
Maybe the "TT mafia" are trying to do things to make sure this doesn't happen, rather than sitting on their arses in front of a computer revelling in thoughts of future chaos and violence. If they don't succeed it will probably be because of too much apathy.

I must admit I've got a lot of sitting on my arse in front of a computer to do to move on my Transition plans, but someone's got to do it!

I sit on my arse because I don't think we have a hope in hell of avoiding chaos and violence. I went along to some TT meetings for a while, but my heart just wasn't in it. I felt most participants really didn't understand the scale of the economic shock that PO will produce, and were p*ssing into the wind. Whatever course one chooses as an individual should be based on a realistic appraisal of the likely course of events - and an appreciation that some forces in history are just too powerful to control. And PO more so than anything before it.