Diplomatic WikiLeaks

PS_RalphW · Post by **PS_RalphW** » 08 Dec 2010, 16:41

A report of character assassination on the guy over at The Register.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/12/07 ... wikileaks/

Is it true ? who knows? Does it change the situation? not really.

Who should we trust? Nobody.

The Register are in the denialist BAU camp on PO, climate change, etc. They are geeks and technocopians. They do not do deep insight.

Vortex · Post by **Vortex** » 08 Dec 2010, 16:41

FWIW a straw poll of the people that I have met recently indicates a general consensus that WikiLeaks should NOT have released all that info ... especially the target list.

Guest · Post by **Guest** » 08 Dec 2010, 16:59

Post by **clv101** » 08 Dec 2010, 17:02

Vortex wrote:FWIW a straw poll of the people that I have met recently indicates a general consensus that WikiLeaks should NOT have released all that info ... especially the target list.

What is the target list though? Isn't it a collection of big obvious things like oil pipelines that everyone knows the importance of and are already protected and small obscure things like anti-venom factories. Why is this list a problem?

Look at 9/11, look at the terrorists targeting markets, look at the London and Indian bombings and hostages... The terrorists are currently targeting soft targets with lots of people. If this list encourages a switch of target away from markets, trains and buses to infrastructure and obscure factories then so what?

Isn't it better to blow up a factory with maybe half a dozen staff than a market with 100 people?

PS_RalphW · Post by **PS_RalphW** » 08 Dec 2010, 17:06

To go even further, if the terrorists had blown up, say, a major oil refinery or a gas pumping station, it might have done more for our energy security today than blowing up trains or buses. It would have made the public sit up and take notice of how insecure our supply is, and how dependant we are on it.

But buses are easier.

woodpecker · Post by **woodpecker** » 08 Dec 2010, 17:52

RalphW wrote:A report of character assassination on the guy over at The Register.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/12/07 ... wikileaks/

Is it true ? who knows? Does it change the situation? not really.

Who should we trust? Nobody.

The Register are in the denialist BAU camp on PO, climate change, etc. They are geeks and technocopians. They do not do deep insight.

Well there's El Reg, and there's Andrew Orlowski (author of this article), employed to write incendiary or controversial copy that will get eyeballs (and hence advertising),

You'll notice Andrew O's articles never have comments switched on, unlike most (all?) the other writers.

Andrew O is actually pretty anti a range of geek groups, for his own personal historical reasons. You could say he has an obsession about it.

In my personal experience (on something/person I know quite a lot about), I know him to have been a very lazy journalist (he doesn't do fact checking and has written some real howlers).

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 08 Dec 2010, 18:16

JohnB wrote:In the world we live in there do, unfortunately, need to be secrets,

Ok, let's unpick that one. First 'in the world we live in'. Well, those of us who find the world we live in a very far from perfect place might not find the argument for it's preservation persuasive. Which leaves 'there...need to be secrets'. Right John, and bearing in mind my first point, can you start us off with a short list of secrets that need to be kept, please?

2 As and a B · Post by **2 As and a B** » 08 Dec 2010, 18:35

clv101 wrote:What is the target list though? Isn't it a collection of big obvious things like oil pipelines that everyone knows the importance of and are already protected and small obscure things like anti-venom factories. Why is this list a problem?

Is this the list?

http://213.251.145.96/cable/2009/02/09S ... html#par15

Is this not the "list" of sites in the UK?

United Kingdom: Goonhilly Teleport, Goonhilly Downs, United Kingdom Madley Teleport, Stone Street, Madley, United Kingdom Martelsham Teleport, Ipswich, United Kingdom APOLLO undersea cable landing Bude, Cornwall Station, United Kingdom Atlantic Crossing-1 (AC-1) undersea cable landing Whitesands Bay FA-1 undersea cable landing Skewjack, Cornwall Station Hibernia Atlantic undersea cable landing, Southport, United Kingdom TAT-14 undersea cable landing Bude, Cornwall Station, United Kingdom Tyco Transatlantic undersea cable landing, Highbridge, United Kingdom Tyco Transatlantic undersea cable landing, Pottington, United Kingdom. Yellow/Atlantic Crossing-2 (AC-2) undersea cable landing Bude, United Kingdom Foot and Mouth Disease Vaccine finishing BAE Systems (Operations) Ltd., Presont, Lancashire, United Kingdom: Critical to the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter BAE Systems Operations Ltd., Southway, Plymouth Devon, United Kingdom: Critical to extended range guided munitions BAE Systems RO Defense, Chorley, United Kingdom: Critical to the Joint Standoff Weapon (JSOW) AGM-154C (Unitary Variant) MacTaggart Scott, Loanhead, Edinburgh, Lothian, Scotland, United Kingdom: Critical to the Ship Submersible Nuclear (SSN)

Apart from misspelling Preston and assigning a foot & mouth vaccine to a BAE facility there, I can't see what the fuss is about.

Post by **clv101** » 08 Dec 2010, 18:56

foodimista wrote:...I can't see what the fuss is about.

Exactly, we could have come up with that same list in half an hour. This is why I can't understand Vortex's last comment:

Vortex wrote:...that WikiLeaks should NOT have released all that info ... especially the target list.

Why especially the target list?

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 08 Dec 2010, 19:07

They seem to have left out the pipeline that allows aviation fuel to be pumped from RAF Conningsby to RAF Waddington in Lincolnshire. I know where it is 'cos I watched them build it. Oh, and it's marked by posts with bright dayglo red tops.

woodpecker · Post by **woodpecker** » 08 Dec 2010, 20:20

biffvernon wrote:
JohnB wrote:In the world we live in there do, unfortunately, need to be secrets,
Ok, let's unpick that one. First 'in the world we live in'. Well, those of us who find the world we live in a very far from perfect place might not find the argument for it's preservation persuasive. Which leaves 'there...need to be secrets'. Right John, and bearing in mind my first point, can you start us off with a short list of secrets that need to be kept, please?

The names of all Russian research assistants employed by members of Parliament?

The European train timetable and the locations of all our airports?

Vortex · Post by **Vortex** » 08 Dec 2010, 20:34

What's wrong with people here?

Of course there are secrets to be protected.

Also, it's obvious that Assange has overstepped the mark. Just read the papers!

Have you seen the reports about 'Operation Payback'?

Does anyone think that governments & corporations will ever forget any of this?

If you have ever met any senior military staff, civil servants, corporate leaders etc you will KNOW in your very bones what's coming.

Quietly, efficiently but certainly unavoidably 'measures will be taken'.

This is no longer a game.

DON'T ANY OF YOU 'GET IT'?

Assange and the Payback crowd have almost 100% guaranteed that the Internet will fall to State control.

The Web that we all use without hindrance today will become a regulated monitored and restricted world.

Brilliant. Bloody marvellous.

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 08 Dec 2010, 21:03

Vortex wrote: Of course there are secrets to be protected.

Ok Vortex, perhaps you could suggest a short list of such secrets then?

Vortex · Post by **Vortex** » 08 Dec 2010, 21:34

- Location of nuclear & other weapon stores
- Security details of weapon stores
- Names of closet gays
- Names of closet HIV infected
- Names of closet chronic illness sufferers
- Details of pre-patent research

Aw heck, why do I bother?

Of course there are secrets which which should remain secrets.

Have I entered a parallel universe where rational though has been swept away by a mismash of left leaning self-important rhetoric?