Identity Politics, Class Warfare and Labour's future

What can we do to change the minds of decision makers and people in general to actually do something about preparing for the forthcoming economic/energy crises (the ones after this one!)?

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Lord Beria3
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Post by Lord Beria3 »

Yes. Just read what Greer was writing in his latest blog post.
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UndercoverElephant
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Post by UndercoverElephant »

kenneal - lagger wrote:The has been much joviality and pleasure expressed in social media and on the box over the "break up" of the Tory Party over Brexit is the last few years but Johnson with a few bold strokes has divested the party of its troublesome Remainers and quietened those sho are still in the party. Labour, that "core of stability" in the body politic while it had no power and had no need to come together on any issue has been shown, when it needed to come together for an election, to be even more split than the Tories have ever been.

The Tories, I suspect, have long been anti-Europe at the grass roots level with only a few MPs and lobbyists pro-Europe. As the MPs have now been removed and the lobbyists seem to have little hold over the party hierarchy the party has now come together and is showing a united front over Europe. we will have to see how they hold together when it comes to backing promises made to gain the northern Labour vote. As a self employed one nation Tory I just hope that they will be able to get some cash into the hands of those at the bottom so that the whole economy can flourish not just that little bit a the top which has done so well in previous years.

Labour, on the other hand, have been shown to be split three ways with Brehrite Centre Left metropolitan Remainers on one side, Momentum left and ultra left metropolitan Remainers on another and northern small town Brexit voters and party members, conservative with a small "c", stuck in the middle. There is no way that this lot can be united unless Johnson and co get things very wrong indeed and Cummings seems to be too clever to allow them to do that.

I see Labour in opposition and possibly falling apart especially if the Tory government is successful and gets money into the hands of the working class. The rich have done very well for fifty years and especially since 2008 so it is now time for them to recognise that and to allow the balance to be redressed more than a little. If they do Labour are toast.
If the tories move economically to the left then Labour has to rethink everything. However, to refer back to the opening post, the real problem Labour has isn't that it is split over economic policy, but that the left has become two different movements on social policy. Well....it was always two movements. The old Liberal party was socially liberal, but never represented the working class, which is why the Labour Party came into existence in the first place. Labour has now been taken over by large elements of the liberal middle class, because they know the Liberals can't actually win an election. But that has pushed out the interests of the socially conservative working class.

It is that split, which drove Labour's split over brexit, which is shattering the left, and not just in the UK. And in the long run it is clear that the liberal globalists can't win. As more and more "ordinary people" (as opposed to leftist activists) realise civilisation is threatened with collapse, liberalism and globalism will be rejected, and anybody who offers to protect people's interests (ie nationalism and inevitably social conservatism) will be embraced. There is no reason why this cannot also be economically left wing.

As for Labour, it comes down to who wins this leadership election. If RLB is beaten, then Momentum will lose all its momentum.
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Post by vtsnowedin »

ie nationalism and inevitably social conservatism

I don't see social conservatism hard linked to nationalism or to conservative fiscal policy. Those that are anti gay marriage and anti abortion are just as apt to be spendthrifts as tightwads. They also can be hawks or doves when it comes to foreign policy.
In any election one issue will outrank the others and people will move to the party that they feel is right on that issue. Politicians need to recognize this and not drive off people who would vote for them except for an all or nothing position on these side issues.
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Lord Beria3
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Post by Lord Beria3 »

https://www7.politicalbetting.com/index ... n-betfair/

Betting markets are saying it's all over. Sir Keir has won the race.
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Lord Beria3
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Post by Lord Beria3 »

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailym ... trust.html

Hodges nails it. A posher version of ed Miliband.
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vtsnowedin
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Post by vtsnowedin »

From the article:
I’m not sure if Sir Keir laughed when, as DPP, he unveiled his new drive to target benefits cheats and lock them up in prison for ten years. But he certainly pursued his campaign with relish.‘It is vital that we take a tough stance on this type of fraud and I am determined to see a clampdown on those who flout the system,’ he proudly proclaimed in 2013.
To the author this is a bad thing that proves Starmer is not for the "working class" .
Just whose money does he think the cheats are stealing?
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Post by fuzzy »

Clueless Dan couldn't win against a one legged man in an arse kicking competition.
Keir doesn't need to reinvent himself as the champion of the self employed tradesperson - he needs to represent the majority who are employees and unemployed of the UK
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Post by Little John »

vtsnowedin wrote:From the article:
I’m not sure if Sir Keir laughed when, as DPP, he unveiled his new drive to target benefits cheats and lock them up in prison for ten years. But he certainly pursued his campaign with relish.‘It is vital that we take a tough stance on this type of fraud and I am determined to see a clampdown on those who flout the system,’ he proudly proclaimed in 2013.
To the author this is a bad thing that proves Starmer is not for the "working class" .
Just whose money does he think the cheats are stealing?
What a load of old bollocks.

Benefit fraud is minuscule in the grand, budgetary scheme of things.

But let's all focus on the benefit "cheats" perpetrated by the poorest in our societies because, obviously, they are the one's dragging us all down... right?

:lol: ... F--k me


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fuzzy
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Post by fuzzy »

Ordinary people fraud is a rounding error on the public costs

'12% of the UK’s debt liability is down to 600,000 Whitehall Mandarin pensions' AND 'the UK’s national debt is now £78,000 for every household in the country'

that was 10 years ago..

https://hat4uk.wordpress.com/2010/08/22 ... ly-hidden/
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Post by vtsnowedin »

If it is a "minuscule amount" why not clean it up? You will have a minuscule number of people in jail and greater confidence in the system. How is policing a "minuscule" number of cheats attacking a whole class of people which are a rather large minority?
Now at the same time one would like to see a strong program of prosecuting fraud by bankers and businessmen as well as the politicians that let them get away with it but it is not a choice of doing one or the other as both need a lot of work.
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Post by fuzzy »

One reason is because the civil service spend more doing it than they save. Another is that there is much less work than there are people, so if someone is receiving small benefit and not needing to work it simply allows someone else to work. The people they actually do prosecute do little harm, while every EU migrant with kids is entitled to claim UK child welfare, even if they leave the UK or pay nothing in. This is EU law. That is millions of uncounted people. Our NHS can't be bothered to claim treatment costs for overseas visitors even though it's the legal system. These sort of costs are strangling the UK
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Lord Beria3
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Post by Lord Beria3 »

I work hard and don't claim benefits.

Anybody taking the piss from the benefits systems should be prosecuted. That's only fair.

I'm glad Sir Keir used to do that in his old job. Right now, he is saying very left-wing stuff to get elected.

He needs to be careful - none of this is appealing to soft Tory voters who he needs should Labour get elected. And if he is being cynical good luck shifting to a different course if get elected leader.

He's a posh Ed Miliband and will probably face the same electoral fate - defeat.
Peace always has been and always will be an intermittent flash of light in a dark history of warfare, violence, and destruction
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Lord Beria3
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Post by Lord Beria3 »

Anybody think, if Nandy gets in, that she could prove a surprise success with the membership?

It's starting to feel like a coronation but we are still in the SW1 stage of the contest.

I don't bet anymore but would be tempted by a little wager on Nandy on exchange. If her odds shortened could get out with a profit.
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Post by vtsnowedin »

fuzzy wrote:One reason is because the civil service spend more doing it than they save. Another is that there is much less work than there are people, so if someone is receiving small benefit and not needing to work it simply allows someone else to work. The people they actually do prosecute do little harm, while every EU migrant with kids is entitled to claim UK child welfare, even if they leave the UK or pay nothing in. This is EU law. That is millions of uncounted people. Our NHS can't be bothered to claim treatment costs for overseas visitors even though it's the legal system. These sort of costs are strangling the UK

The fact you have a problem (which might go away after a no deal Brexit) with immigrants and their children is no reason to not do the best you can eliminating fraud and abuse in the benefits system. The size of one problem does not diminish the needs of the other.
But back to my original point: That prosecuting cheats is somehow perceived as an attack on all benefits recipients is stupid. An administrator that turns a blind eye to cheating cheats all the people, both recipients and the taxpayers that pay the bills.
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Post by Little John »

vtsnowedin wrote:
fuzzy wrote:One reason is because the civil service spend more doing it than they save. Another is that there is much less work than there are people, so if someone is receiving small benefit and not needing to work it simply allows someone else to work. The people they actually do prosecute do little harm, while every EU migrant with kids is entitled to claim UK child welfare, even if they leave the UK or pay nothing in. This is EU law. That is millions of uncounted people. Our NHS can't be bothered to claim treatment costs for overseas visitors even though it's the legal system. These sort of costs are strangling the UK

The fact you have a problem (which might go away after a no deal Brexit) with immigrants and their children is no reason to not do the best you can eliminating fraud and abuse in the benefits system. The size of one problem does not diminish the needs of the other.
But back to my original point: That prosecuting cheats is somehow perceived as an attack on all benefits recipients is stupid. An administrator that turns a blind eye to cheating cheats all the people, both recipients and the taxpayers that pay the bills.
Given the limited resource of the inland revenue, do you consider it an appropriate allocation of those resources (according to the 2016 numbers) for them to allocate the following personnel to the following fraudulent activities:

Tax evasion/avoidance: 300
Benefit fraud: 3250

Here's another helpful infographic to help you decide

Image
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