Identity Politics, Class Warfare and Labour's future

vtsnowedin · Post by **vtsnowedin** » Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:31 pm

Well if the Guardian says so it must be the truth.

Little John · Post by **Little John** » Sun Jan 12, 2020 11:40 pm

The Guardian was quoting official statistics. You are obfuscating now.

Lord Beria3 · Post by **Lord Beria3** » Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:18 am

They are both problems and should be targeted.

Most of us here would disagree with your earlier point that because benefit fraud is allegedly relatively small it should be ignored.

Suggests you are out of touch with the ordinary person on the street. Most people I know get really pissed off about those who abuse the benefits system whilst they work their socks off.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:39 am

Lord Beria3 wrote:Anybody think, if Nandy gets in, that she could prove a surprise success with the membership?

Absolutely. I have no doubt she would make an excellent leader. I think a lot of the momentum types are so focused on their own agenda, that they haven't realised how good Nandy actually is. She's exactly what Labour needs to win back the red wall, without alienating the rest of the party.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » Mon Jan 13, 2020 8:41 am

Lord Beria3 wrote:They are both problems and should be targeted.

Most of us here would disagree with your earlier point that because benefit fraud is allegedly relatively small it should be ignored.

Suggests you are out of touch with the ordinary person on the street. Most people I know get really pissed off about those who abuse the benefits system whilst they work their socks off.

Yes, they are both problems and should both be targeted. And we all know that the very rich get away with it, because the tory party doesn't want to target that particular problem. That's the issue here - one rule for the rich, and another for everyone else.

Little John · Post by **Little John** » Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:25 am

Just as a matter of interest. Has anyone here ever lived on 80 quid a week? Out of which food, gas, electric, water rates, clothes, shoes, washing and toiletries and a portion of council tax must be paid for. And all of that before transportation to interviews or, indeed, anything other than merely existing are taken into account.

I don't mean for a week or so.

I mean for several week or months.

But, let's regard the poorest of the poor, a small percentage of whom may find a way of bringing in a few extra quid a week on the side, as equally heinous in terms of their fraudulent activities as the global corporations defrauding us all of billions.

Yeah... right....

Little John · Post by **Little John** » Mon Jan 13, 2020 9:45 am

Meanwhile:

labour-leader-candidates-sign-board-of-deputies-pledges-in-bid-to-become-completely-unelectable

https://voxpoliticalonline.com/2020/01/ ... electable/

Labour are controlled opposition. They always have been.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » Mon Jan 13, 2020 10:41 am

Little John wrote:Meanwhile:

labour-leader-candidates-sign-board-of-deputies-pledges-in-bid-to-become-completely-unelectable

https://voxpoliticalonline.com/2020/01/ ... electable/

Labour are controlled opposition. They always have been.

Except they aren't. This won't solve the "problem". You can pressurise the leadership into signing up to this shit, but that doesn't mean they can actually change the views of Labour members. If the new leader actually tries to rigidly enforce these rules, it will eventually split the party. There's too many people who just aren't going to back down on this.

Little John · Post by **Little John** » Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:10 am

UndercoverElephant wrote:
Little John wrote:Meanwhile:

labour-leader-candidates-sign-board-of-deputies-pledges-in-bid-to-become-completely-unelectable

https://voxpoliticalonline.com/2020/01/ ... electable/

Labour are controlled opposition. They always have been.
Except they aren't. This won't solve the "problem". You can pressurise the leadership into signing up to this shit, but that doesn't mean they can actually change the views of Labour members. If the new leader actually tries to rigidly enforce these rules, it will eventually split the party. There's too many people who just aren't going to back down on this.

The PLP are controlled opposition. Only a blind man or a wilful fool cannot see that. Indeed, it has been during Corbyn's watch that the last of the socialists were expelled from the PLP. As for the membership, those that are not "suited" to the party line will be corralled back into line and/or "encouraged" to leave.

There is actually something worse than the Tories and that thing is those people who expend all of their energies supporting and promoting the Labour party on the basis that they are the "only alternative" despite all evidence to the contrary. In doing so, they serve to hold back the cause of working people far more than the Tories ever could. People like you.

careful_eugene · Post by **careful_eugene** » Mon Jan 13, 2020 11:26 am

Little John wrote:Just as a matter of interest. Has anyone here ever lived on 80 quid a week? Out of which food, gas electric, water rates, clothes, shoes, washing and toiletries and a portion of council tax must be paid for. I don't mean for a week or so. I mean for several week or months.

A former colleague of mine who I worked with years ago and then again more recently, spent almost a year unemployed (he was in his late 50's at the time and struggled to find anything). When his redundancy money and savings ran out he really struggled to survive on benefits, having had no previous experience of claiming he found the whole process daunting and demeaning. He was pretty much destitute for about 6 months and ended up selling things to buy food etc.
His overall take on it all was that he couldn't understand that despite having worked for all his life paying tax and NI, when he needed help from the state the system seemed to be designed to stop him accessing anything. Also, the people whom he dealt with at the job centre were callous and unhelpful. This was about 6 - 7 years ago and he's now retired and much happier.
I doubt things have got any better since then.

Little John · Post by **Little John** » Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:35 pm

They've got worse.

Much worse.

UndercoverElephant · Post by **UndercoverElephant** » Mon Jan 13, 2020 12:59 pm

Little John wrote:People like you.

Oh, give it a break Steve. I am not your enemy. I'm continually attacked by the very people you think I am one of. You've never really understood where I am coming from, and routinely misunderstand my posts, usually because you've jumped to incorrect conclusions.

emordnilap · Post by **emordnilap** » Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:01 pm

I, Daniel Blake underplays the horrors of the UK welfare system.

Little John · Post by **Little John** » Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:20 pm

UndercoverElephant wrote:
Little John wrote:People like you.
Oh, give it a break Steve. I am not your enemy. I'm continually attacked by the very people you think I am one of. You've never really understood where I am coming from, and routinely misunderstand my posts, usually because you've jumped to incorrect conclusions.

I understand exactly where you "are coming from"

Little John · Post by **Little John** » Mon Jan 13, 2020 1:20 pm

emordnilap wrote:I, Daniel Blake underplays the horrors of the UK welfare system.

Yes, indeed it does.