EU membership referendum debate thread

What can we do to change the minds of decision makers and people in general to actually do something about preparing for the forthcoming economic/energy crises (the ones after this one!)?

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johnhemming2
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Post by johnhemming2 »

clv101 wrote:1 MP, who was really a Tory defector.
I don't think anyone would claim anything else about him. Why then the use of the word "really"?
Little John
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Post by Little John »

Why Trump won and the implications for Brexit:

http://www.labourfuture.org.uk/why_trump_won

I haven;t read all of this. it seems to recognize the failure of the "moderate" political establishment. but, I have not read enough to know if it understands the underlying ecological drivers. My guess is not. but, I would appreciate others' take on it.
vtsnowedin
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Post by vtsnowedin »

Little John wrote:Why Trump won and the implications for Brexit:

http://www.labourfuture.org.uk/why_trump_won

I haven;t read all of this. it seems to recognize the failure of the "moderate" political establishment. but, I have not read enough to know if it understands the underlying ecological drivers. My guess is not. but, I would appreciate others' take on it.
Devaluing Sterling to parity with the US dollar would certainly be a hard sell in many quarters. Also having increased investment at the same time you balance budgets is talked about much more often then it is achieved.
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emordnilap
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Post by emordnilap »

This is interesting.

Image
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Little John
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Post by Little John »

Nobody "conned" people into voting Brexit. They voted for Brexit for the same reason they voted for Trump. Because the alternative was worse and they had nothing left to lose.
Little John
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Post by Little John »

So, Carline Lucas decides she doesn't like democracy then and, in doing so, shows which side of the divide she is on, when push comes to shove. She knows, well enough, that her core base are the same smug, self-satisfied, middle class liberals who are shouting hysterically about Brexit and all the rest.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... t-reckless

In which case, the working class will dismiss all she has to say on any thing else
johnhemming2
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Post by johnhemming2 »

Interestingly people appear to have spotted that our EEA membership is as an individual party rather than through the EU
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/0/artic ... le-market/
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PS_RalphW
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Post by PS_RalphW »

We used to condemn the Soviet system as anti-democratic because the leadership was elected through a hierarchical series of committees rather than a general vote, and the general elections were to figurehead representatives and prime ministers who were selected by the party and did exactly what they were told. But really what is democracy if any individual voting mechanism is flawed and leads to style of government that favours some parts of the electorate over another? How do we balance representative government against plebiscite?

Who decides what to decide by plebiscite and who doesn't? I have never really come up with an answer to that one - ultimately a good government is one that convinces the rabble not to riot either by treating people fairly or fooling the rabble that they have never had it so good. Governments are always elites and always designed for the benefit of the governing class.
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UndercoverElephant
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Post by UndercoverElephant »

Little John wrote:So, Carline Lucas decides she doesn't like democracy then and, in doing so, shows which side of the divide she is on, when push comes to shove. She knows, well enough, that her core base are the same smug, self-satisfied, middle class liberals who are shouting hysterically about Brexit and all the rest.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... t-reckless

In which case, the working class will dismiss all she has to say on any thing else
She will lose her seat in Brighton if she votes against article 50. Yes, her "core vote" will approve, but she needs more than that to hold that seat. I know the demographics very well, because I used to live there, and I predict that if Caroline Lucas votes against article 50 she will haemorrhage enough votes to UKIP to hand her seat to the tories at the next election.
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UndercoverElephant
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Post by UndercoverElephant »

emordnilap wrote:This is interesting.

Image
It is just another insult to the intelligence of Brexit voters, and will backfire.

Some people just don't learn (and I don't mean you).
johnhemming2
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Post by johnhemming2 »

Brighton was 68.6% remain
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UndercoverElephant
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Post by UndercoverElephant »

johnhemming2 wrote:Brighton was 68.6% remain
Still doesn't give her the right to over-rule the result of a referendum, and the fact that Brighton was 68.6% remain does not mean that all the people who vote green are also Remain supporters. She's already very vulnerable in that seat because of boundary changes. She cannot afford to lose even 5% of Green voters. She needs all of them.
Little John
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Post by Little John »

From George Galloway:

There's not much negotiation needed here:

1. We are leaving the EU and will not be sending you any more money;

2. We won't put any tariffs or barriers on your goods and services unless and until you put tariffs on ours;

3. We will cooperate fully with you on police intelligence and anti-terrorism issues as we did before 1973;

4. We will decide who can live & work in our country as you must do in yours. We don't intend to expell any EU citizen already here;

5. Henceforth our own courts and parliament will be supreme in our country;

6. Just FYI we intend to at least match best practice in the EU on workers rights environmental protection and liberties.

Farewell.
woodburner
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Post by woodburner »

Point 6 wouldn't have been possible with Cameron's government, and I suspect it might be weakly supported by May's.
To become an extremist, hang around with people you agree with. Cass Sunstein
Little John
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Post by Little John »

woodburner wrote:Point 6 wouldn't have been possible with Cameron's government, and I suspect it might be weakly supported by May's.
That's what sovereign nation state general elections are for. Which is not a problem if you are a democrat and believe in democracy.
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