End of the Minimum Wage?

What can we do to change the minds of decision makers and people in general to actually do something about preparing for the forthcoming economic/energy crises (the ones after this one!)?

Moderator: Peak Moderation

User avatar
UndercoverElephant
Posts: 11250
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2008 12:00 am
Location: south east England

Post by UndercoverElephant »

biffvernon wrote:Is it just me or has Dom lost the plot?
Dom is looking at the world through the eyes of a Tory. Is this "having lost the plot?" It is usually the result of not having any real understanding of what it is like to be on the sharp end of Tory policies. You might argue that the tories never grasped the plot in the first place. This is the party that would, had it won the election outright, have slashed inheritance tax for the upper-middle class. No doubt Dominic would be here defending that move too, although God only knows how.
User avatar
UndercoverElephant
Posts: 11250
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2008 12:00 am
Location: south east England

Post by UndercoverElephant »

goslow wrote: I don't know all about the fine points of this issue but I suspect that the NMW in itself is not a big factor in current youth unemployment. More like poor education, unwillingness to relocate etc
...and there not being enough jobs.
User avatar
biffvernon
Posts: 18539
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2005 11:09 am
Location: Lincolnshire
Contact:

Post by biffvernon »

The minimum wage is, of course, an attempt to mitigate some of the evil of capitalism. The capitalist will always try to find ways round it.

A maximum wage would do the job even better. Say £10 per hour? That's well above the world average, enough to live well by and would prepare us for the post peak oil collapse.

:)
User avatar
clv101
Site Admin
Posts: 8818
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2005 11:09 am
Contact:

Post by clv101 »

UndercoverElephant wrote:
DominicJ wrote:Under the current regime, If you are not worth £7.23 an hour, thats it, you are unemployed forever.
The minimum wage in the UK is £5.93.
The wage may be £5.93, but the cost to the employer is higher.
User avatar
DominicJ
Posts: 4387
Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2008 2:34 pm
Location: NW UK

Post by DominicJ »

UE
Your arguement isnt based in reality though.

This isnt an aerguement between £30 an hour jobs and £3 an hour jobs.
Its an arguement between no job and a low paying job.

There are 500,000 vacancies AT £8+ an hour.

We dont know how many vacancies there are at £3 an hour because its illegal to ask.
If your solution is to pay each of those people only £2 per hour (lots more jobs!!!) then you are asking people to do a full week's work and end up with considerably less money than is required to fulfil their basic living requirements
*I* am not asking anyone to do anything
YOU are denying people the option.
That depends what they are actually doing. If they really are learning a useful skill then maybe it is justifiable for a while. More likely they will be doing something very menial and will stop learning after about 30 minutes, in which case it is better for them to be unemployed, unless you approve of slavery.
The most important things I got from my first job were knowledge of how a Printer/Copier/Fax works and proof that I could turn up on time 95 days out of 100.
Money was irrelevent.
In reality most of those people will simply remain at the bottom of the pile, now forced to work for less money than is required for their basic living needs.
As opposed to now, where they are forced to beg from the state for basic living needs?
Where are your morals?
Firmly in my life, if you only you'd stop enforcing yours on me....
The minimum wage in the UK is £5.93.
Add an 8% holiday entitlement, add 13% Employers National insurance, ect.
I was chatting to friends partner over the BBQ last bankholiday.
He wants to start up his own accounts firm in the new year, I semi jokingly said, "Oh I'll be looking for work in March" and his response was "No employees, but I might subcontract"
Follow your argument to its natural conclusion and we'd end up with people in the UK being employed for 50p an hour.
Some, quite possibly.
Again, I fail to see your point?
Your argueing its better to begger than a low paid employee.
Dom is looking at the world through the eyes of a Tory. Is this "having lost the plot?" It is usually the result of not having any real understanding of what it is like to be on the sharp end of Tory policies.
I grew up in a single parent family, my dad walked out 91/92, poverty is just a word to you.
I lived it.



No one, for all their preaching, is yet to expalin why its better to beg for pennies than earn them?
I'm a realist, not a hippie
Blue Peter
Posts: 1939
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2005 11:09 am
Location: Milton Keynes

Post by Blue Peter »

DominicJ wrote:TB
Blue Peter
And why are there no jobs?
As above, if paid my neighbour £1 an hour to do my ironing, that would a job.
I would have to pay her £8, I wont, therefore, there is no job.
Unfortunately, £1 an hour isn't enough to live on in this country, so it's not really a job,


Peter.
Does anyone know where the love of God goes when the waves turn the seconds to hours?
User avatar
DominicJ
Posts: 4387
Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2008 2:34 pm
Location: NW UK

Post by DominicJ »

Your not really explaining how £1 an hour is worse than £0 an hour....
I'm a realist, not a hippie
User avatar
UndercoverElephant
Posts: 11250
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2008 12:00 am
Location: south east England

Post by UndercoverElephant »

DominicJ wrote: Your argueing its better to begger than a low paid employee.
Actually I'm arguing that if you're being that badly shafted by an immoral, unfair system then you are morally justified in turning to crime to finance your basic needs.
I lived it.
Then why are you so enthusiastic about imposing it on others?
No one, for all their preaching, is yet to expalin why its better to beg for pennies than earn them?
A system which allows parasitical bankers to earn hundreds of times what they actually need to live on even after they've bankrupted the nation, but also expects the people at the bottom of the pile to work for less than is required to live on is fundamentally immoral and unjust. You are offering me/them a choice between "begging" (i.e. benefits) and wage-slavery. I am responding by saying "F--k you, F--k the system, F--k the tories, BRING IT DOWN." I am saying that I refuse to be manipulated by people like you into choosing between the devil and the deep blue sea whilst you and your tory chums try get inheritance tax scrapped for millionaires. There is another alternative, and that is to refuse to co-operate by turning to things like crime, violent protest and subversion/sabotage of the system.
Last edited by UndercoverElephant on Tue Jun 21, 2011 7:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
emordnilap
Posts: 14631
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2007 4:36 pm
Location: here

Post by emordnilap »

Well said that man.
I experience pleasure and pains, and pursue goals in service of them, so I cannot reasonably deny the right of other sentient agents to do the same - Steven Pinker
goslow
Posts: 705
Joined: Mon Nov 26, 2007 12:16 pm

Post by goslow »

I happened to come across this blog of a candidate in Philip Davies constituency last election, that publishes an email from the MP explaining his point of view on the NMW, it seems to be an ongoing thing of his

http://alexross.wordpress.com/
User avatar
DominicJ
Posts: 4387
Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2008 2:34 pm
Location: NW UK

Post by DominicJ »

Then why are you so enthusiastic about imposing it on others?
Once again, I ask, where have I attempted to enforce anything on anyone?
I didnt grow up in poverty because my mother was incapable of work, I grew up in poverty because my mother was prevented from working, activly, by the government. Which threatened to kidnap her children if she did not surrender her employment and beg.
There is another alternative, and that is to refuse to co-operate by turning to things like crime, violent protest and subversion/sabotage of the system.
I'm not sure what your one woman revolution has to do with the minimum wage....
And just a forwarning, Scargill destroyed the British Coal, he didnt save it.
The rest of the world moved on, they will again. Leaving you behind, with your angry mob of illiterates.
I'm a realist, not a hippie
User avatar
UndercoverElephant
Posts: 11250
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2008 12:00 am
Location: south east England

Post by UndercoverElephant »

DominicJ wrote:
There is another alternative, and that is to refuse to co-operate by turning to things like crime, violent protest and subversion/sabotage of the system.
I'm not sure what your one woman revolution has to do with the minimum wage....
I'm male, and if you push the British public hard enough they will eventually revolt.
And just a forwarning, Scargill destroyed the British Coal, he didnt save it.
The rest of the world moved on, they will again. Leaving you behind, with your angry mob of illiterates.
It's not often I'm described as illiterate. :)

I'm sorry, but coming from a poor background doesn't excuse you for being a Tory, and thinking like a Tory.
User avatar
DominicJ
Posts: 4387
Joined: Tue Nov 18, 2008 2:34 pm
Location: NW UK

Post by DominicJ »

I'm male, and if you push the British public hard enough they will eventually revolt.
Are you sure? I'm sure you've said you were a woman?
:roll:

I have no doubt we will see rioting in the next few years. And? I diont see where youre going with this. Scargills war destroyed coal mining, it didnt save it.
We've seen multiple revolutions in the middle east, Greece and Spain are both facing quasi revolutionary general strikes.
They're rioting until they get better paid jobs, everyone on here is quite rightly of the opinion that the current governments or any newly installed governments have no ability to meet those demands.

Riot, I've got a sister in the States, I've apparently got some cousins in Oz, I've got a few friends in the US who's be quite happy to put up me and my girlfriend effectivly indefinatly.
SHTF, I can leave
It's not often I'm described as illiterate. :)
You're not illiterate, SHTF, can you leave? So who will be left in the UK with rioting mobs demanding the world gives them a free ride?
I'm sorry, but coming from a poor background doesn't excuse you for being a Tory, and thinking like a Tory.
I think you rather miss the point, One of the two of us grew up in actual poverty. Why do you think you can preach to me about what people who grew up in poverty want? Or whats the best way to get out of poverty?

For my first accounts job, I earnt £5 an hour, and that included holiday pay, so I actualy earnt £4.63 an hour. That wasnt that long ago, it was certainly after I was 18 and after the minimum wage was over £5 an hour.
Now, I earn considerably more than minimum wage.

If I hadnt taken that job, which was illegal remember, I might still be unemployed. I'd applied for hundreds of jobs, received dozens of interviews, and everytime, "not enough experience" and a rejection.
I'm a realist, not a hippie
User avatar
UndercoverElephant
Posts: 11250
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2008 12:00 am
Location: south east England

Post by UndercoverElephant »

DominicJ wrote:
I'm male, and if you push the British public hard enough they will eventually revolt.
Are you sure? I'm sure you've said you were a woman?
:roll:
Image
I have no doubt we will see rioting in the next few years. And?
...and dead bankers, hopefully.
Scargills war destroyed coal mining, it didnt save it.
We've seen multiple revolutions in the middle east, Greece and Spain are both facing quasi revolutionary general strikes.
They're rioting until they get better paid jobs, everyone on here is quite rightly of the opinion that the current governments or any newly installed governments have no ability to meet those demands.
We can ritually behead some bankers though, and that will at least provide the public with some justice/entertainment.
You're not illiterate, SHTF, can you leave?
I can't think of anywhere to go that will let me in, apart from maybe Ireland.
So who will be left in the UK with rioting mobs demanding the world gives them a free ride?
I don't want a free ride. I want the parasitical bankers and corporate filth to stop having a free ride at my expense.
I'm sorry, but coming from a poor background doesn't excuse you for being a Tory, and thinking like a Tory.
I think you rather miss the point, One of the two of us grew up in actual poverty.
You seem to be under the impression that I come from a wealthy middle class background (as well as being female and hard left socialist, which I'm not either). My mother was the youngest child of 5 with an invalid father and grew up in the East End of London with absolutely nothing. My father's father ran a bicycle shop in Bromley. I'm first-generation lower-middle class.
Why do you think you can preach to me about what people who grew up in poverty want? Or whats the best way to get out of poverty?
I find your politics obnoxious, Dominic. I don't like Tories. Never have done, never will. It's hard for this not to get personal. I guess that's why you aren't supposed to mention politics at parties, but powerswitch is not a party.
Now, I earn considerably more than minimum wage.
Yeah, I bet you do.
User avatar
nexus
Posts: 1305
Joined: Sat May 16, 2009 10:57 pm

Post by nexus »

I'm a realist and a hippie
love it :lol:
Power concedes nothing without a demand. It never did and it never will. Frederick Douglass
Post Reply