About Tradeable Energy Quotas

For discussion of Tradeable Energy Quotas (TEQs). See http://www.teqs.net for more.

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emordnilap
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Post by emordnilap »

cubes wrote:Imo it wasn't anything that could ever have been sold to the public.
It's a matter of spin. It could easily have been sold. Too many vested interests stand in the way.
I experience pleasure and pains, and pursue goals in service of them, so I cannot reasonably deny the right of other sentient agents to do the same - Steven Pinker
cubes
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Post by cubes »

"easily sold"? Just takes someone like Farage to call it rationing to destroy any hope of majority public support.

I agree something needs to be done though. Perhaps a tax on all the unnecesary smart devices.
Shaun Chamberlin
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Post by Shaun Chamberlin »

clv101 wrote:
cubes wrote:Imo it wasn't anything that could ever have been sold to the public.
Unfortunately I think there is a large gap between anything that effectively addresses climate change and/or resource scarcity and 'could ever have been sold to the public'. Hence we will experience significant problems associated with climate change and/or resource scarcity.
Spot on Chris. Back in 2014 three of us authored this peer-reviewed paper on TEQs, which opened as follows:

"The essential problem is easily stated: there is a rift in realism. Realism about the findings of climate science demands dramatic and immediate emissions reductions if we are to avoid catastrophic destabilization of the global climate ... Yet present political reality in these countries says that such reductions are unthinkable."

Lead authoring that paper was for me an expression of admitting to myself that I couldn't heal that rift in realism. I agree with emordnilap that too many vested interests stand in the way, but for me that wasn't an argument to keep banging my head against the wall they represent.

I nonetheless wanted to put all I had learned about TEQs on the record, for those who are still striving for sensible policy (it remains clear to me that TEQs is desperately needed, for several reasons).

For myself, it was time to focus on the wider cultural narratives that need to shift before such sensible policy could ever be adopted.

Hence creating LeanLogic.online and Surviving the Future: Conversations for Our Time.

But rest assured that TEQs is indeed not dead; merely slumbering like a seed beneath the snow, awaiting a more propitious moment.

New advocates regularly contact me, and I was particularly encouraged by this truly outstanding recent paper putting TEQs in the context of Tainter's work on societal collapse, later highlighted by David Holmgren.

Warm wishes to all of you battling for a little sanity.
Shaun
RevdTess
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Post by RevdTess »

Shaun Chamberlin wrote: Lead authoring that paper was for me an expression of admitting to myself that I couldn't heal that rift in realism.
Well done for accepting that. I remember arguing against you for this very reason. I could never see how you'd involve the whole population in what is quite a complex, technocratic solution, without risking exploitation of the poor and vulnerable. Principle is great, but in practice? In any case, covid and slow economic collapse are doing the job atm...
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Post by kenneal - lagger »

RevdTess wrote:,......In any case, covid and slow economic collapse are doing the job atm...
I think that this is the only way that anything effective will be done to reduce the size of the economy as, as others have said, there are too many vested interests which only look to tomorrow and not even the day after and so the climate can go to hell.
Action is the antidote to despair - Joan Baez
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emordnilap
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Post by emordnilap »

RevdTess wrote:
Shaun Chamberlin wrote: Lead authoring that paper was for me an expression of admitting to myself that I couldn't heal that rift in realism.
Well done for accepting that. I remember arguing against you for this very reason. I could never see how you'd involve the whole population in what is quite a complex, technocratic solution, without risking exploitation of the poor and vulnerable. Principle is great, but in practice? In any case, covid and slow economic collapse are doing the job atm...
Interesting, Tess. I'd disagree that TEQs are complex, at least from a working point of view. The system itself is very simple; C&S simpler still. But I assume you mean more than that.
I experience pleasure and pains, and pursue goals in service of them, so I cannot reasonably deny the right of other sentient agents to do the same - Steven Pinker
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emordnilap
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Post by emordnilap »

Shaun Chamberlin wrote:"The essential problem is easily stated: there is a rift in realism. Realism about the findings of climate science demands dramatic and immediate emissions reductions if we are to avoid catastrophic destabilization of the global climate ... Yet present political reality in these countries says that such reductions are unthinkable."
Shaun, can I share that please? With credit, naturally.
I experience pleasure and pains, and pursue goals in service of them, so I cannot reasonably deny the right of other sentient agents to do the same - Steven Pinker
Shaun Chamberlin
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Post by Shaun Chamberlin »

RevdTess wrote:
Shaun Chamberlin wrote: Lead authoring that paper was for me an expression of admitting to myself that I couldn't heal that rift in realism.
Well done for accepting that. I remember arguing against you for this very reason. I could never see how you'd involve the whole population in what is quite a complex, technocratic solution, without risking exploitation of the poor and vulnerable. Principle is great, but in practice? In any case, covid and slow economic collapse are doing the job atm...
Thanks for the thoughtful response Tess, though to my eyes this has things a little back-to-front.

I'd say rather that the economic collapse you cite is a given, and is what pretty well guarantees exploitation of the poor and vulnerable. David Fleming developed the TEQs system as a response to that reality - its raison d'etre is to ameliorate some of that exploitation and suffering by allowing for a more managed descent.

And as emordnilap says, while the systems thinking behind the system may indeed be complex, people's actual interactions with it would be no more complex or technocratic than is topping up the credit on our rather complex smartphones. That's the very beauty of the design, that it engages folk without making them grapple with a complex system. If you are interested in how this is achieved, I commend the FAQs on the TEQs site, which I recently updated.

I should clarify that my step away from active TEQs advocacy was not due to finding fault with the system; simply acknowledging that in the prevailing political climate I couldn't find any way to see it implemented.

Warmly,
Shaun
Shaun Chamberlin
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Post by Shaun Chamberlin »

emordnilap wrote:
Shaun Chamberlin wrote:"The essential problem is easily stated: there is a rift in realism. Realism about the findings of climate science demands dramatic and immediate emissions reductions if we are to avoid catastrophic destabilization of the global climate ... Yet present political reality in these countries says that such reductions are unthinkable."
Shaun, can I share that please? With credit, naturally.
Absolutely. The paper is out in the public domain and freely-accessible, so quote anything you like. You might also enjoy my more recent (and less academic) expansion on that particular thought.

By the way, there was a nice column by a former Member of the Scottish Parliament advocating TEQs in Scotland's The Herald the other day :) I plan to send out another update to the mailing list next week with all that's afoot.

Best,
Shaun
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