CBI on the future of domestic heating

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vtsnowedin
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Post by vtsnowedin »

Here is some drone footage of the village of my town. Lots of colonial architecture in evidence with many of the houses dating back to the 1800s. Some would call it a ribbon development but to be fair the hills crowd in so there was never much choice. The common where the drone takes off from looking at the church was sold to the town by one of my great^3 grandfathers for the princely sum of £10 back when that was legal tender in the Republic of Vermont.
My apologies for the music.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QQznyEvGhHw
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BritDownUnder
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Post by BritDownUnder »

I'll hit you back with some even worse music from my present hometown.

Hills are not an issue with my place. It is famous (locally) for three things...
1) The largest sundial in the Southern Hemisphere which is the concrete thing with holes in it near the start of the video.
2) Being a tidy town winner for some year or other.
3) Having the largest living cow in the world about 10 years ago - I tried to impress my future wife with that one and it did not go well.

You have got some rusty roofs in your town and they need repainting urgently.
G'Day cobber!
stumuz1
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Location: Anglesey

Post by stumuz1 »

Nice footage VT.

The houses look very suitable for renewable sources for heating., air source/ground source etc, in fact district heating (central boiler with the well insulated pipes going to individual properties) is possible.

However, take a look of the footage of where I live. Dwellings range from pre-Christian to the latest passives house. And a lot in-between!

Variety of heating methods will be needed.

You get to my side of the Island at about 12.15.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Otr1pYP4Fdw

A large house on the Menai straits has a newly developed marine source heat pump to supply its energy needs.

https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/featur ... dd-mansion
stumuz1
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Post by stumuz1 »

BritDownUnder wrote: 1) The largest sundial in the Southern Hemisphere which is the concrete thing with holes in it near the start of the video.
2) Being a tidy town winner for some year or other.
3) Having the largest living cow in the world about 10 years ago - I tried to impress my future wife with that one and it did not go well.
I'm impressed!
vtsnowedin
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Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

Post by vtsnowedin »

BritDownUnder wrote:I'll hit you back with some even worse music from my present hometown.

Hills are not an issue with my place. It is famous (locally) for three things...
1) The largest sundial in the Southern Hemisphere which is the concrete thing with holes in it near the start of the video.
2) Being a tidy town winner for some year or other.
3) Having the largest living cow in the world about 10 years ago - I tried to impress my future wife with that one and it did not go well.

You have got some rusty roofs in your town and they need repainting urgently.
Yes a few but there are workmen here that paint or replace roofs as their business. Just a matter of the age and circumstances of the occupants when that will get done. The town hall roof is slate and they are working on that in sections as a complete replacement is a budget buster. The hall is the brick building with the round corner towers on the corner of the North common. My wife's town clerk office is in one round tower and part of the town library in the other.
I would definitely have to call you tidy town residents "Flat landers". Very Nice.
vtsnowedin
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Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:14 pm
Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

Post by vtsnowedin »

stumuz1 wrote:Nice footage VT.

The houses look very suitable for renewable sources for heating., air source/ground source etc, in fact district heating (central boiler with the well insulated pipes going to individual properties) is possible.

However, take a look of the footage of where I live. Dwellings range from pre-Christian to the latest passives house. And a lot in-between!

Variety of heating methods will be needed.

You get to my side of the Island at about 12.15.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Otr1pYP4Fdw

A large house on the Menai straits has a newly developed marine source heat pump to supply its energy needs.

https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/featur ... dd-mansion
So you live in Cheteau Rhianfa?
I was contemplating all the sweat and toil that went into building all those stone structures and walls with many of them now in ruins. A sea wall to protect a cemetery? A church in the middle of a pasture with no village adjacent at least not today?
A beautiful place to say the least.
vtsnowedin
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Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

Post by vtsnowedin »

stumuz1 wrote:Nice footage VT.


A large house on the Menai straits has a newly developed marine source heat pump to supply its energy needs.

https://www.nationaltrust.org.uk/featur ... dd-mansion
Interesting. They claim a savings but are a bit shy on giving figures. A 300KW electric pump makes a meter spin quite smartly and I would have liked them to say on a day that used to consume 1500 liters of fuel oil (at what cost/L) how many kwhs of electricity it now takes to replace it and at what cost/ KWH.
They probably do have a solid savings but I like to check the math.
kenneal - lagger
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Post by kenneal - lagger »

Yours is typical village development, VT, where houses were built along side existing roads, ribbon development, and then eventually spaces were infilled between so that people didn't have to walk too far. The invention of the motor car, along with the constraint of the valley, has obviously allowed Chelsea, VT, to stretch a fair way.

I liked the music, it took me back to my misspent youth, and I'm impressed that they chose a British band to show your town to its best advantage.

Judging by some of the tidal rips in your footage, Stu, you have quite a resource of tidal energy as well as wind and marine heat pumps. I also noticed that there was a lot more slate in Anglesey than Chelsea. No surprise really!

Drone technology hasn't progressed quite so far down under it would seem from the definition, BDU. What's the draw for such a large town? Coal or wine?

I liked the solar powered clock; very environmental. A lot more useful where you are than in wet, wet Wales or anywhere in the west of the UK. You could do with a lot more PV though to keep some of the coal in the ground.
Action is the antidote to despair - Joan Baez
stumuz1
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Post by stumuz1 »

vtsnowedin wrote:
So you live in Cheteau Rhianfa?
I wish!!

No, it was a folly of a french chateau, built when the grand tour was in fashion.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Tour

My daughter got married there last year so I lived there for a couple of days!!

vtsnowedin wrote: I was contemplating all the sweat and toil that went into building all those stone structures and walls with many of them now in ruins.
It was done bit by bit since man first walked upright. The churches are usually built on pagan temples more than 4000 years old. Where we did human sacrifices until the Romans came and stopped it. Bloody Romans,
vtsnowedin wrote: A sea wall to protect a cemetery?
Wales used to be connected to Ireland by a landmass. Great floods (Noah?) climate change (yes, it's happened before) is constantly changing the geography.
vtsnowedin wrote: A church in the middle of a pasture with no village adjacent at least not today?
A beautiful place to say the least.
Small, cut off, fishing communities. They finally threw in the towel late 40's 50's.

There was easier ways to make a living,
kenneal - lagger
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Post by kenneal - lagger »

stumuz1 wrote:.............
vtsnowedin wrote: A church in the middle of a pasture with no village adjacent at least not today?
A beautiful place to say the least.
Small, cut off, fishing communities. They finally threw in the towel late 40's 50's. .............,
There are a lot of old churches in England like that. They were the site of an original village that was abandoned during the great plague when the villagers moved a mile or so away.
Action is the antidote to despair - Joan Baez
stumuz1
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Post by stumuz1 »

vtsnowedin wrote: Interesting. They claim a savings but are a bit shy on giving figures. A 300KW electric pump makes a meter spin quite smartly and I would have liked them to say on a day that used to consume 1500 liters of fuel oil (at what cost/L) how many kwhs of electricity it now takes to replace it and at what cost/ KWH.
They probably do have a solid savings but I like to check the math.
No figures given, but a claim of a £30 K energy saving on their 43 year old oil boiler.

From their brochure
'One of the key measures of any system of this type is the ratio of energy ‘in’ and heat ‘out’. This is called the Co-efficiency of Performance or CoP. Any renewable energy system has to give you a CoP of 2.9 to qualify for the Renewable Heat Incentive (in laymans terms, you have to put in 1kwh of electricity to give you a return of 2.9kwh of heat out).

They claim a cop of 3 - 3.2

https://www.kimpton.co.uk/marine-source ... as-newydd/
stumuz1
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Post by stumuz1 »

kenneal - lagger wrote:
There are a lot of old churches in England like that. They were the site of an original village that was abandoned during the great plague when the villagers moved a mile or so away.
Best thing about old English churches?

There is usually a fantastic old pub within a 100 yards!
vtsnowedin
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Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

Post by vtsnowedin »

stumuz1 wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote: Interesting. They claim a savings but are a bit shy on giving figures. A 300KW electric pump makes a meter spin quite smartly and I would have liked them to say on a day that used to consume 1500 liters of fuel oil (at what cost/L) how many kwhs of electricity it now takes to replace it and at what cost/ KWH.
They probably do have a solid savings but I like to check the math.
No figures given, but a claim of a £30 K energy saving on their 43 year old oil boiler.

From their brochure
'One of the key measures of any system of this type is the ratio of energy ‘in’ and heat ‘out’. This is called the Co-efficiency of Performance or CoP. Any renewable energy system has to give you a CoP of 2.9 to qualify for the Renewable Heat Incentive (in laymans terms, you have to put in 1kwh of electricity to give you a return of 2.9kwh of heat out).

They claim a cop of 3 - 3.2

https://www.kimpton.co.uk/marine-source ... as-newydd/
Fair enough. I being a technician would have fun working all the figures including the capital cost of the new equipment and any required modification of the building worked against the life expectancy of the new equipment and the financing interest rate if not subsidized.Can it pay for itself in say ten years if you have to use your own money or worse borrow it?
A CoP of 3 would probably make all those numbers work out quite nicely especially if you consider the probable future price of heating oil with a probable carbon tax taxed onto it.
vtsnowedin
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Post by vtsnowedin »

kenneal - lagger wrote:Yours is typical village development, VT, where houses were built along side existing roads, ribbon development, and then eventually spaces were infilled between so that people didn't have to walk too far. The invention of the motor car, along with the constraint of the valley, has obviously allowed Chelsea, VT, to stretch a fair way.

I liked the music, it took me back to my misspent youth, and I'm impressed that they chose a British band to show your town to its best advantage.

Judging by some of the tidal rips in your footage, Stu, you have quite a resource of tidal energy as well as wind and marine heat pumps. I also noticed that there was a lot more slate in Anglesey than Chelsea. No surprise really!

Drone technology hasn't progressed quite so far down under it would seem from the definition, BDU. What's the draw for such a large town? Coal or wine?

I liked the solar powered clock; very environmental. A lot more useful where you are than in wet, wet Wales or anywhere in the west of the UK. You could do with a lot more PV though to keep some of the coal in the ground.
The layout of the village was pretty much set by 1860 with the present streets then being corduroy roads and dirt covered. There were four water wheel dams and mills in the village with one impoundment backing up to the other. This fed saw mill, bobbin shop and grist mill and for a brief time electricity. Most of the original roofs were wooden shingles made locally and many were over laid by metal roofing when it became available. The house I grew up in (west of the village shown) and it's associated barns were all of this type. When the hurricane of 1938 blew the metal roofing off my fathers house the old shingles underneath held, while the neighbors a half mile up the hill had his ripped off all the way down to the post and beam rafters. They came and sheltered with my father and it took both grown men to shut the front door against the wind and spike it shut. You could see the spike holes in my youth and one was even used as a door lock in the winter.
Slate was in America a luxury item after the invention of standing seam metal roofing and the only reason the town hall is of brick with slate roofing is that the building was a gift from a prosperous son of the town.
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BritDownUnder
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Post by BritDownUnder »

kenneal - lagger wrote:Drone technology hasn't progressed quite so far down under it would seem from the definition, BDU. What's the draw for such a large town? Coal or wine?

I liked the solar powered clock; very environmental. A lot more useful where you are than in wet, wet Wales or anywhere in the west of the UK. You could do with a lot more PV though to keep some of the coal in the ground.
I could say that I came for the coal and stayed for the wine but in reality the previous employer was getting ready to fire me so I jumped and took the first job offer and wasn't too fussy where I ended up. I did not work in coal for that long, visiting my last coal mine in 2011 but they are still around. Lot's of vineyards around but mostly about 40km away from town nearer to Cessnock. The last major vineyard in town was bulldozed late last year just before the video was shot.

I think Singleton had the first utility scale solar farm in Australia back in the late 1990s at 400kW. It is not the sunniest place in Australia but with 2700 hours of sun a year its not too bad - even better than the Mediterranean - and with the Mediterranean / Californian climate I am in no hurry to leave. The video makes the town look a lot larger than it is with 23,000 people in the district which is the same size as Lincolnshire and the town itself having about 16,000 inhabitants.
I am looking for a house out in the country and even had a look at one last week on two acres but the wife complained of the smell of cows and the sellers are wanting a bit too much for it.

At 1m52s of the video you can see the vapour rising from the cooling towers to two large coal power stations to the North of the town. One thing I was disappointed in was the seeming lack of solar on many rooftops. I am doing something to amend that by replacing my old system with a double the size upgrade in a few weeks. I had an inverter failure and the wiring is no longer to standard. Natural Gas has come to town and the neighbour has got it but I use reverse cycle air source heat pumps for cooling and heating and it works just fine. A lot of the town uses woodfires for heating in winter but I have gone off them due to the smoke leaking into the house.
I have thought about ground source heating (mostly) and cooling as the soil temperature is 23 C and would be very good for heating but it is a technology very much in its infancy in Australia.

On the Southampton district heating scheme I was disappointed in the high usage of Natural Gas as a percentage of the mix but I suppose it is due to the CHP part of it as it is also an electricity generation system.
The scheme now heats a number of buildings in the city centre, including the Southampton Civic Centre, the WestQuay shopping centre, Royal South Hants Hospital, Solent University and the Carnival offices; and is part of an enlarged city centre district heating system that includes other combined heating, cooling and power sources.[7][8] As of 2011 the district heating and cooling scheme provides annually 26GWh of electricity and over 40 GWh of heat.[9] Brine from the geothermal well provided 18% of the total district heating mix, with fuel oil (10%) and natural gas (70%) making up the rest. The electricity generated from the scheme is used by Associated British Ports via a private electrical connection to the Port of Southampton, with any surplus electricity sold back to the grid.
Source

The less than 0.5 C temperature loss per km of pipe in the district heating system was quite impressive though.
G'Day cobber!
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