CBI on the future of domestic heating

Discussion of the latest Peak Oil news (please also check the Website News area below)

Moderator: Peak Moderation

stumuz1
Posts: 902
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2016 10:12 pm
Location: Anglesey

CBI on the future of domestic heating

Post by stumuz1 »

Didn't know which thread to post this.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... ls-heating

But good news if the government decide to go with it.
fuzzy
Posts: 1388
Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2013 3:08 pm
Location: The Marches, UK

Post by fuzzy »

It would certainly throw cash/debt about.

There is never going to be a hydrogen gas boiler system. If you are going to try to add heatpumps to 1/2 the UK houses, it is easier to knock them down and build proper insulation. Almost none of the things listed make any sense. External cladding, decent windows and doors is usually the only practical choice and that will have many issues. It's all feasible with new garden town construction, but rubbish for existing old slums. Wealden FFS?? Try it in Wakefield.
fuzzy
Posts: 1388
Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2013 3:08 pm
Location: The Marches, UK

Post by fuzzy »

The 1st priority would be to stop the builders from building mock georgian crap housing on huge estates with no infrastructure. Prefereably dissolve all planning depts in lime, and use them for fertiliser.
kenneal - lagger
Site Admin
Posts: 12491
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 2:35 am
Location: Newbury, Berkshire
Contact:

Post by kenneal - lagger »

Your ignorance on the matter shines through, Fuzzy, although I do agree with you on lack of feasibility of hydrogen heating.

There is also no need to throw personal debt about if the insulation scheme is paid for by a government cash injection with a tax on the savings in energy costs paid for through a charge on the house and through the electricity bill as in the old Green Deal but with no interest charges. The government then only has to provide a seed corn amount of money and the scheme is then taken further on the income from the savings.

It is a lot easier to properly insulate a street of terraced housing than one of detached housing as you have about half the wall area to cover. The work involved in knocking down and rebuilding houses and the carbon emitted is massive compared to the work involved in purely retrofitting them with insulation and even carrying out a renovation at the same time.

Most houses in this country can be fairly easily insulated externally. The problem comes with people who want a brick finish to a house. That can be accomplished using more expensive brick tiles or even a two coat coloured render system with the mortar joints scraped/drawn out which would be paid for personally as a choice.

Once houses are insulated it is feasible to replace gas and oil boilers with heat pumps of a much reduced size without over loading the grid to the extent that new nuclear plant would be required. Part of the refurbishment process would be the installation of PV on roofs where the correct orientation exists.

Prior to typing this I was in a Zoom meeting as part of the planning application process with a developer who is proposing to build 1500 homes locally and we, two parish councils, were questioning them on their proposals and how they are changing in light of Declarations of Climate Emergency from the councils involved. No planning process and no consultation. We questioned them on sustainable transport plans, bus lanes on and off site, the orientation of houses to facilitate PV provision, allotment provision and public open space provision among other things.

The insulation levels and heating are governed nationally by the Building Regulations. The developers told us that in view of recently published government guidelines, which will be backdated to houses now under planning consideration, they are now looking at their house designs and seeing where changes have to be made.

So regulation is central to the provision of quality new houses both at planning and building regulations stages. If we didn't have planning laws every main road in the country would have a line of houses from one town to the next, the old ribbon development of the days prior to the 1947 Planning Act which put a stop to ribbon development. It was obviously cheaper to build a house next to an existing road which is what developers did before 1947. Fuzzy might not be averse to that though.
Last edited by kenneal - lagger on Wed Jul 22, 2020 4:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Action is the antidote to despair - Joan Baez
kenneal - lagger
Site Admin
Posts: 12491
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 2:35 am
Location: Newbury, Berkshire
Contact:

Post by kenneal - lagger »

Developers build mock Georgian crap because that is what the feel they can sell not because planners insist on it. Most people would rather spend £30k on an expensive kitchen rather than the same amount on a house that will save them that amount over fifteen or twenty years through lower energy bills. They will then spend another £30k a few years later when the current kitchen goes out of fashion. Unfortunately the "Market" is driven by the decision of vain idiots.
Action is the antidote to despair - Joan Baez
User avatar
Mark
Posts: 1370
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:48 am
Location: NW England

Post by Mark »

kenneal - lagger wrote:Unfortunately the "Market" is driven by the decision of vain idiots.
+1
Unfortunately that applies to everything in modern society - phone upgrades, fast fashion, fancy cars, computers, soft furnishings etc. etc. etc.
User avatar
adam2
Site Admin
Posts: 8207
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2007 5:49 pm
Location: North Somerset

Post by adam2 »

I cant say that "mock Georgian" worries me more than any other style.
The real issue is energy efficiency not architectural style.

The banning of gas boilers in newly constructed homes from 2025 sounds sensible. Apart from the little weasel words "unless hydrogen ready" That I fear will mean the continuation of large scale gas heating provided that each boiler bears a green sticker that reads "new eco boiler, ready for green hydrogen"

A bit like building fossil fuel power plants being OK if branded as being "carbon capture ready"

I am rather doubtful about proposals to ban new gas boilers in EXISTING HOMES from the same date. I fear at least three un-intended consequences from such a measure.
1) Old and less efficient, or less safe boilers continuing in service for many years.
2) A vast increase in electric heating in old and poorly insulated homes, when the boiler fails or is condemned, and is replaced by 15Kw of portable electric heaters.
3) An increase in portable LPG burning heaters, which are firstly still a fossil fuel, and secondly are potentially dangerous if used carelessly. (and no you cant realistically ban LPG sales, it has far too many legitimate uses)

When reasonably practical, older homes should be equipped with better insulation and either a heat pump, or thermal storage heating, or biomass heating.
Those who choose to live in large, old, draughty houses may have to accept.
That heating such a home is going to be expensive.
That warm clothing, including long underwear is a requirement for several months of the year.
That they may have to heat only part of their house.
"Installers and owners of emergency diesels must assume that they will have to run for a week or more"
fuzzy
Posts: 1388
Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2013 3:08 pm
Location: The Marches, UK

Post by fuzzy »

kenneal - lagger wrote:Your ignorance on the matter shines through, Fuzzy, although I do agree with you on lack of feasibility of hydrogen heating.

There is also no need to throw personal debt about if the insulation scheme is paid for by a government cash injection with a tax on the savings in energy costs paid for through a charge on the house and through the electricity bill as in the old Green Deal but with no interest charges. The government then only has to provide a seed corn amount of money and the scheme is then taken further on the income from the savings.

It is a lot easier to properly insulate a street of terraced housing than one of detached housing as you have about half the wall area to cover. The work involved in knocking down and rebuilding houses and the carbon emitted is massive compared to the work involved in purely retrofitting them with insulation and even carrying out a renovation at the same time.

Most houses in this country can be fairly easily insulated externally. The problem comes with people who want a brick finish to a house. That can be accomplished using more expensive brick tiles or even a two coat coloured render system with the mortar joints scraped/drawn out which would be paid for personally as a choice.

Once houses are insulated it is feasible to replace gas and oil boilers with heat pumps of a much reduced size without over loading the grid to the extent that new nuclear plant would be required. Part of the refurbishment process would be the installation of PV on roofs where the correct orientation exists.

Prior to typing this I was in a Zoom meeting as part of the planning application process with a developer who is proposing to build 1500 homes locally and we, two parish councils, were questioning them on their proposals and how they are changing in light of Declarations of Climate Emergency from the councils involved. No planning process and no consultation. We questioned them on sustainable transport plans, bus lanes on and off site, the orientation of houses to facilitate PV provision, allotment provision and public open space provision among other things.

The insulation levels and heating are governed nationally by the Building Regulations. The developers told us that in view of recently published government guidelines, which will be backdated to houses now under planning consideration, they are now looking at their house designs and seeing where changes have to be made.

So regulation is central to the provision of quality new houses both at planning and building regulations stages. If we didn't have planning laws every main road in the country would have a line of houses from one town to the next, the old ribbon development of the days prior to the 1947 Planning Act which put a stop to ribbon development. It was obviously cheaper to build a house next to an existing road which is what developers did before 1947. Fuzzy might not be averse to that though.
..except the article is about heat pumps and district heating, so your sanctimonious ignorance shines like a beacon, Ken.
fuzzy
Posts: 1388
Joined: Fri Nov 29, 2013 3:08 pm
Location: The Marches, UK

Post by fuzzy »

Personally I would have thought housing from the garden towns until the 50s was the best age of housing development. If you think modern town planning is good for England I can't agree. Try Telford or Newcastle?

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.03088 ... a=!3m1!1e3
vtsnowedin
Posts: 6596
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:14 pm
Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

Post by vtsnowedin »

I would think with modern lighting the window sizes would be reduced from the Georgian/colonial standards intended for candle and lamp use but other then that those building styles were quite serviceable and still are. And as you say any style building can be built with a high energy efficiency when starting new.
kenneal - lagger
Site Admin
Posts: 12491
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 2:35 am
Location: Newbury, Berkshire
Contact:

Post by kenneal - lagger »

fuzzy wrote:It would certainly throw cash/debt about.

There is never going to be a hydrogen gas boiler system. If you are going to try to add heatpumps to 1/2 the UK houses, it is easier to knock them down and build proper insulation. Almost none of the things listed make any sense. External cladding, decent windows and doors is usually the only practical choice and that will have many issues. It's all feasible with new garden town construction, but rubbish for existing old slums. Wealden FFS?? Try it in Wakefield.
fuzzy wrote:The 1st priority would be to stop the builders from building mock georgian crap housing on huge estates with no infrastructure. Prefereably dissolve all planning depts in lime, and use them for fertiliser.
I was only answering points that you bought up, fuzzy, but they are relevant to the issue of how a home is heated efficiently.
fuzzy wrote:..except the article is about heat pumps and district heating, so your sanctimonious ignorance shines like a beacon, Ken.
So it would seem that you definitely didn't know what you were talking about.
Action is the antidote to despair - Joan Baez
User avatar
adam2
Site Admin
Posts: 8207
Joined: Mon Jul 02, 2007 5:49 pm
Location: North Somerset

Post by adam2 »

I doubt that we will see many more district heating schemes (though calling for more research into same is a good way of postponing doing anything here and now)

Historically, most district heating schemes have used waste heat from fossil fuel power stations.
These days we have less fossil fueled power stations, and few of these run continually.

Some district heating used waste heat from industry but we have less heavy industry these days, and what we do have tends to be increasingly efficient, with little waste heat.

Retrofitting district heating to an old residential district would be hugely hated and strongly opposed due to the disruption.

Installing district heating in new residential developments is unlikely to be worthwhile because new homes should be so well insulated as to need very little heating.
"Installers and owners of emergency diesels must assume that they will have to run for a week or more"
kenneal - lagger
Site Admin
Posts: 12491
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 2:35 am
Location: Newbury, Berkshire
Contact:

Post by kenneal - lagger »

fuzzy wrote:Personally I would have thought housing from the garden towns until the 50s was the best age of housing development. If you think modern town planning is good for England I can't agree. Try Telford or Newcastle?

https://www.google.co.uk/maps/@55.03088 ... a=!3m1!1e3
I used to live in a new town, fuzzy, so I know the problems of them. I also have eyes to see the disbenefits of unplanned, unregulated ribbon and other development.

I also thought that the garden towns were so good because they were all PLANNED developments. Being of a smaller scale than newer developments they were easier to plan and were built at a time when we had a much lower population, land prices were much lower and there weren't the worries about urban sprawl so gardens were of a much larger size and developments were much more spacious.

Modern Town Planners are working in a much more constrained environment, fuzzy, but we are still better off without the unplanned development. Would you rather live in the slums that encircle, or did before they were knocked down, our larger towns and cities that were the result of unregulated building?
Action is the antidote to despair - Joan Baez
kenneal - lagger
Site Admin
Posts: 12491
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 2:35 am
Location: Newbury, Berkshire
Contact:

Post by kenneal - lagger »

adam2 wrote:.................Installing district heating in new residential developments is unlikely to be worthwhile because new homes should be so well insulated as to need very little heating.
This is one of the reasons why district heating could be advantageous, Adam, especially if there is a cheap or waste heat resource. Because the houses are so well insulated the distribution network for the heating can be relatively small as the heat demand will be small.

In areas with a high quality geothermal heat resource, such as Southampton, where there is such a geothermal resource and a DH system in the town centre, and Cornwall, sitting on radioactive heat emitting granite, a district heating system could function really well.

It could well be cheaper to install a borehole and a distribution network rather than individual heat pumps to each house and the energy use and cost would be much lower as well. Even if the installation was more expensive the energy cost in use would still be much lower. The cost advantage would depend of the level of heat available and the number of houses in the development.
Action is the antidote to despair - Joan Baez
kenneal - lagger
Site Admin
Posts: 12491
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 2:35 am
Location: Newbury, Berkshire
Contact:

Post by kenneal - lagger »

vtsnowedin wrote:I would think with modern lighting the window sizes would be reduced from the Georgian/colonial standards intended for candle and lamp use but other then that those building styles were quite serviceable and still are. And as you say any style building can be built with a high energy efficiency when starting new.
Georgian window sizes were not that large, in proportion to the room sizes, in most cases because the architects were conscious of the fact that windows loos more heat than walls an in buildings with only open fires to heat the rooms window size could be critical for comfort. Georgian windows also tended to be tall and narrow which is the most energy efficient way of introducing light into a room whereas modern window tend to be wide and not too deep.

The current Building Regulations in the UK require the windows to be a minimum of one tenth of the floor area and with a proper distribution of windows it is possible to adequately light most rooms naturally. If most of those windows are on the south east or west sides there will also be a net heat gain through the windows throughout the year. This can be amplified by the use of heavy, lined curtains at night.

By the way the modern architectural fad of building glass boxes can never be as efficient as a building with minimal sized windows.
Action is the antidote to despair - Joan Baez
Post Reply