Brexit process

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UndercoverElephant
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Post by UndercoverElephant »

And I just found this:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06 ... eresa-may/
Germany has hinted it would be willing to grant the UK Brexit concessions amid fears that talks could collapse if Theresa May is ousted as Prime Minister as a result of Brussels playing hard ball, according to reports.
Maybe the EU is realising that if it continues to be so unreasonable, it may end up with a serious problem on its north-western border.

It is also likely that the EU doesn't want to increase the probability of Corbyn ending up in Downing Street. The worse these talks go, the more likely that outcome becomes.
johnhemming2
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Post by johnhemming2 »

The concessions on the CJEU are nonsense. If the UK leaves the EU it has no judges in the CJEU. Having british judges as part of a court that interprets the agreement is only logical and is the same as following CJEU rulings were we to remain in the EU.

It is the sort of thing that is the same as saying you don't want to rely on the Supreme Court for the top appellate court, but instead would prefer the judicial committee of the privy council.

It means nothing in practice.
AutomaticEarth
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Post by AutomaticEarth »

Brexit has gone 'soft and squidgy'.

May has decided that she's happy to allow EU citizens - skilled and non-skiiled - can stay if they've been here for 5 years. This should be at least 10 years, plus required skills needed.

As for UK citizens living abroad - well stuff them, it's their choice to live abroad....
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emordnilap
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Post by emordnilap »

AutomaticEarth wrote:As for UK citizens living abroad - well stuff them, it's their choice to live abroad....
I'm stuffed, thanks. :lol: Took out Irish citizenship some years ago, the Irish passport might come in handy one day if I find myself stuck somewhere...

There are roughly 1,200 people being sworn in in Ireland every month.
I experience pleasure and pains, and pursue goals in service of them, so I cannot reasonably deny the right of other sentient agents to do the same - Steven Pinker
AutomaticEarth
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Post by AutomaticEarth »

emordnilap wrote:
AutomaticEarth wrote:As for UK citizens living abroad - well stuff them, it's their choice to live abroad....
I'm stuffed, thanks. :lol: Took out Irish citizenship some years ago, the Irish passport might come in handy one day if I find myself stuck somewhere...

There are roughly 1,200 people being sworn in in Ireland every month.
Yeah I agree - there is always the option of emmigrating....

That could the subject of a new thread I think.
Little John
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Post by Little John »

So, just as a note of interest, to me at least:

Several of the significant leftist players on face-book (Anniversary of the Miners strike - Ragged trousered philanthropist etc) are removing any posts that are of a left persuasion, but are pro-brexit. Not just mine, but quite a few other posters as well.

On the one hand, the above is fairly inconsequential. But, on the other, shows that they are having more push-back from Left leaning brexiteers than they are clearly comfortable with and so have felt compelled to delete anybody who posts along such lines in order to keep the narrative they are trying to weave, on track as it were.

If Labour do not start putting an absolute full stop under this, it will be their undoing.
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Lord Beria3
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Post by Lord Beria3 »

Well, I have said all along that you can't have a material change in Britain's economic policies (e.g. neo-liberalism) and remain members of the EU.

Bizarrely all those left-wing activists who love the EU never seem to get this simple fact.

Corbyn, to give him credit, doe,s which is why he has always been a Brexiteer, despite what he was forced to say during the referendum (forced by the pro-EU Labour PLP).

I'm glad to see that even the Remainer UE is waking up to this, belatedly.

My sense is that the Europeans prefer the devil they know (e.g. the Tories) to the risk of a hard-left Corbyn government with a neo-Marxist Hard Brexit strategy. As the Politico article states, this could prove a dangerous inspiration to the European Left (thinking the French, the Greeks and others in the Club Med).

So, we will get a softer Brexit but it appears, still the basic hard Brexit outlined by both party manifestos - e.g. leaving the single market and customs union with likely transition arrangements for a number of years.

Where I see the ge having a big difference is the terms of the access to the single market which will prioritize access over 100% migration control.

This will upset immigration focused Labour/UKIP Leave voters but will please the millions of Tory Remain voters who will likely return to the Tory fold.
Peace always has been and always will be an intermittent flash of light in a dark history of warfare, violence, and destruction
cubes
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Post by cubes »

Personally I feel the remainer tories (and many other) are waiting for a credible third party - and (unfortunately) when it appears they'll ignore it. Our current parties need to be swept away and replaced by fit-for-purpose parties with fit-for-purpose politicans.
johnhemming2
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Post by johnhemming2 »

Lord Beria3 wrote:Well, I have said all along that you can't have a material change in Britain's economic policies (e.g. neo-liberalism) and remain members of the EU.
The EU is built on the concept of capitalism (ie private ownership at least in part of business) and competition.

Free Trade Agreements tend to be based upon regulated capitalism and competition.

What alternative proposal do you have for the operation of at least most of the economy, some of which is state run in various ways.

If you had an alternative proposal what role would there be for a trade agreement.
fuzzy
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Post by fuzzy »

A trade agreement is something that is simply lobbied by multinationals and gov/city wonks for their benefit. Just like the endless red tape and tax law that work against the public and SMEs.
johnhemming2
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Post by johnhemming2 »

fuzzy wrote:A trade agreement is something that is simply lobbied by multinationals and gov/city wonks for their benefit. Just like the endless red tape and tax law that work against the public and SMEs.
There is a form of analysis that starts out with the assumption that everything that governments do is against the interest of average citizens and then tries to fit the facts to that analysis.

To me it is a load of nonsense. However, in a sense it is not worth arguing with as the people propounding this start with their conclusions rather than trying to develop conclusions from the facts.

That does not mean, however, that I agree with that analysis.

I would make a simple point, however, which is that competition empowers the consumer because the consumer can decide whose products or services to buy.
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Mark
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Post by Mark »

fuzzy wrote:A trade agreement is something that is simply lobbied by multinationals and gov/city wonks for their benefit. Just like the endless red tape and tax law that work against the public and SMEs.
Yes, those terrible EU red tape Regulations......
That get transposed into UK Building Regulations / Fire Protection legislation / Environmental Protection legislation / Worker Protection rights and the like....
fuzzy
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Post by fuzzy »

You mean the building regulations that say I can't fit an electric shower? Or that if I have new windows someone has to drill holes in the frame to let air in? Or that all gas appliances can't be fitted with an idiot proof self sealing bayonet coupling so that anyone can terminate it [although we can send people into space and back], and you have to pay some jobsworth high priest who isn't really any more capable than you or me? Last year I dismantled my electric shower and replaced the weeping parts. We are still alive and clean. In my last house I repaired the crappy soldering on a crappy Potterton combi boiler. This morning I have enjoyed my self designed loudspeakers made the old school, non IT way, algebra and transfer functions. One day I might show you some home made inverters and my stash of pre chinese counterfeit MOSFETs - spares to keep them running and therefore me warm for a lifetime. Funny how the experts have just killed x00s of people in London a week ago. Hopefully some regulators will die of hypothermia when the power cuts arrive.
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adam2
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Post by adam2 »

Why cant we make our own regulations on fire safety, building regulations, electrical safety and the like.

Despite a recent tragedy, the UK has a generally good safety record compared to many of our European neighbours.
Portable equipment should generally comply with international standards so as to facilitate trade.
Buildings don't move around so can be built to whatever requirements OUR authorities deem suitable.

UK fatalities from fire, from road accidents, and from electrical accidents are lower than in many other countries, per million of population.
"Installers and owners of emergency diesels must assume that they will have to run for a week or more"
fuzzy
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Post by fuzzy »

johnhemming2 wrote:
fuzzy wrote:A trade agreement is something that is simply lobbied by multinationals and gov/city wonks for their benefit. Just like the endless red tape and tax law that work against the public and SMEs.
There is a form of analysis that starts out with the assumption that everything that governments do is against the interest of average citizens and then tries to fit the facts to that analysis.

To me it is a load of nonsense. However, in a sense it is not worth arguing with as the people propounding this start with their conclusions rather than trying to develop conclusions from the facts.

That does not mean, however, that I agree with that analysis.

I would make a simple point, however, which is that competition empowers the consumer because the consumer can decide whose products or services to buy.
Sorry but thats what Tony Liar said when he expected LAs to bus kids all over the place to school, pubs to allow public vomiting and brawling all hours, and utility companies to endlessly fiddle with contracts to try and BS the public. Choice is a mantra for a scam in business lobbying.
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