Brexit process

Discussion of the latest Peak Oil news (please also check the Website News area below)

Moderator: Peak Moderation

Little John
Posts: 8700
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2008 12:07 am
Location: UK

Post by Little John »

Meanwhile, how will taxation, representation and democracy work with no borders?

Vague hand waving and song lyrics do not count as answers, by the way.
User avatar
UndercoverElephant
Posts: 11255
Joined: Mon Mar 10, 2008 12:00 am
Location: south east England

Post by UndercoverElephant »

Mark wrote: My personal view is that if we shared the global cake out a bit more equitably, there would be less pressure on people to up sticks and relocate across borders.
How?
We need global agreements to tax the Am@zons, Apples and Googles of this world. If they won't pay - ban them

That won't work, because it is in each country's interest to lower their taxes enough to attract those companies.

So again the question is how we get to the destination you are describing.

I have tried explaining the answer to people, but not many seem to get it:

https://www.researchgate.net/publicatio ... resilience

The problem is money itself. And the key point about the above solution to the problem is that it is in the self-interest of each country to implement it. It is the fairest way to make things fairer.
User avatar
Mark
Posts: 1370
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2007 8:48 am
Location: NW England

Post by Mark »

Little John wrote:Meanwhile, how will taxation, representation and democracy work with no borders?

Vague hand waving and song lyrics do not count as answers, by the way.
If you read my post, I wasn't advocating global 'no borders', I was advocating a better/fairer trade and taxation system to indirectly reduce the pressure on borders - subtly different. I don't want to speak for emordnilap, but I don't think his suggestion was totally serious.
Remember, you're supposed to be watching your blood pressure.... :)
stumuz1
Posts: 902
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2016 10:12 pm
Location: Anglesey

Post by stumuz1 »

emordnilap wrote:
stumuz1 wrote:However to your question. I will pass it right back!

Why do you need a border in Ireland?
Me? :D I don't. If I had my way, there would be no such thing as borders.
I think we agree that Ireland has had a de facto no border for some time now. This coupled with Irelands constant milking of cash cows has brought relative peace. But a huge decision, constantly put off for four years, has to be made by the Irish North and South, rich and poor, Irish or British identities.

Do you want the de facto no border to continue? If the answer is yes, then very simple solutions can be found.

I have a feeling that people who do not have Irelands best interest at heart are trying to remove the balm of the last twenty years.
stumuz1
Posts: 902
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2016 10:12 pm
Location: Anglesey

Post by stumuz1 »

Little John wrote:Meanwhile, how will taxation, representation and democracy work with no borders?
You are correct, borders are needed. But in Ireland you have a choice. You can set up a company and genuinely decide which side of a theoretical line best suits you, your business, your identity.

Similarly, if you live in the south you can pop over the invisible border to buy your wine at the much cheaper UK supermarket in Newry, knowing the taxes go to the UK, or if you wouldn’t give the UK gov’ the steam off your piss, then you can purchase the same wine in the South more expensively. Choice is yours (Irish peeps)

Same applies to examples in the North.
stumuz1
Posts: 902
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2016 10:12 pm
Location: Anglesey

Post by stumuz1 »

Mark wrote: If you read my post, I wasn't advocating global 'no borders', I was advocating a better/fairer trade and taxation system to indirectly reduce the pressure on borders - subtly different.
That would put the cat amongst the pigeons!

I don’t think the RoI would thank you for that. Irelands USP at the mo’ is selling offshore tax haven status for Google, Apple, Microsoft, Phizer etc.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ireland_a ... ured_state
User avatar
emordnilap
Posts: 14631
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2007 4:36 pm
Location: here

Post by emordnilap »

Little John wrote:
emordnilap wrote:
stumuz1 wrote:However to your question. I will pass it right back!

Why do you need a border in Ireland?
Me? :D I don't. If I had my way, there would be no such thing as borders.
How will taxation, representation and democracy work with no borders? Genuine question.
Obviously, I'm not clever enough to devise a better system - but taxation isn't working at the moment. You only have to look at the Googles and Apples, plus the Trumps of this world. Ireland is one of the guilty countries. One thing's clear: profits should be taxed, not labour, for a really good start.

There's a chapter in Rutger Bregman's Utopia for Realists which deals with many aspects of borders. It deals with several major criticisms of open borders.
I experience pleasure and pains, and pursue goals in service of them, so I cannot reasonably deny the right of other sentient agents to do the same - Steven Pinker
kenneal - lagger
Site Admin
Posts: 12499
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 2:35 am
Location: Newbury, Berkshire
Contact:

Post by kenneal - lagger »

Little John wrote:
emordnilap wrote:
stumuz1 wrote:However to your question. I will pass it right back!

Why do you need a border in Ireland?
Me? :D I don't. If I had my way, there would be no such thing as borders.
How will taxation, representation and democracy work with no borders? Genuine question.
The Irish Criminal Army wants a border but no border because they can make a fortune from smuggling across that non border because of slightly differing tax rates. If it takes a war to keep their income stream going, a war there shall be.

The income tax people on both sides of the border should start investigating where a few people get their money from and jail the perpetrators but they're probably frightened that that would restart a war as well.

It was a tax investigation which put Al Capone and a few others like him in jail. As long as they are in jail I'm not particularly bothered what they are in for. If they're in for monetary crimes they will probably get a longer sentence than if they were put away for violence as TPTB are more concerned about money than public safety.
Action is the antidote to despair - Joan Baez
kenneal - lagger
Site Admin
Posts: 12499
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 2:35 am
Location: Newbury, Berkshire
Contact:

Post by kenneal - lagger »

Regarding taxation, taxing capital is difficult at the moment because of the mobility of capital and the desire of governments to increase their income by that taxation. What is difficult to avoid is a tax on sales as that can be charged at the point of sale or delivery. Capital taxes can then be removed. We just have to rely on the market and competition to make sure that companies don't put up their prices to keep their income levels the same as now. It also has the advantage that the evil Am@zons of this world can't so easily undercut ethical companies like John Lewis.
Action is the antidote to despair - Joan Baez
vtsnowedin
Posts: 6596
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:14 pm
Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

Post by vtsnowedin »

All taxes paid by corporations are actually paid by the customers included in the price they pay. Corporations that have achieved a monopoly in a market can set prices including the embedded taxes as high as the stockholders want while competition when it exists will hold total prices down as they struggle for market share.
I do agree that a tax on sales or income would be a better earner then the present taxes on profits after expenses have been written off but care needs to be taken to eliminate the tax on profits when substituting the sales tax.
The idea that giant corporations can avoid all taxes while raking in billions in sales and profits is obscene. The rules and exemptions that allow this need to be repealed. Perhaps during this Brexit process your tax code can be improved to promote economic growth with fair proportional taxation.
User avatar
clv101
Site Admin
Posts: 8821
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2005 11:09 am
Contact:

Post by clv101 »

vtsnowedin wrote:All taxes paid by corporations are actually paid by the customers included in the price they pay.
Well, some of that tax burden falls to shareholders in reduced dividend and directors and employees in lower pay that might otherwise be the case.
Little John
Posts: 8700
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2008 12:07 am
Location: UK

Post by Little John »

Middlesbrough and Hartlepool have both told the government to go and f*ck themselves with regard to the latest lock-down edicts emanating from downing street. The mayors and councils of these two towns are openly defying the government and stating, on the record they will NOT impose these lockdowns.

https://www.gazettelive.co.uk/news/tees ... n-19029615

FINALLY

Some people are finding their balls and are beginning to stand up to this shit.

There was very nearly one imposed on Redcar and Cleveland - which would include Loftus where I live - last week. I shit you not. Turns out, it is only because our own local mayor, Wayne Davies and others, also told the government to go and swing. But that was not publicized. I only found out about that last night.

Funny how the North East led the charge in the Brexit vote as being the largest out leaving area in the country. and it is the north east that is getting it's bottom spanked with the stripping way of civil liberties. It's almost as if the establishment is sending a message, that we will do as we are told, or else.

F*ck em
RevdTess
Posts: 2983
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2005 11:09 am
Location: Newquay

Post by RevdTess »

Pretty sure Johnson is hating having to impose any lockdowns. It seems to me like he's trying to do it ineffectually, so that there are as many asymptomatic cases as possible, especially among students who rarely get ill from it and who are all conveniently isolated in student digs.

It's pretty much what he wanted to do the first time around, but the number of hospital cases started to look overwhelming, especially for those needing ventilators. This time I think he's hoping to look like he's taking precautionary action while really hoping it'll spread to as many less-vulnerable people as possible.

Problem politically for Johnson is that all the northern working people who voted for him and Brexit are now in areas where all the outbreaks are. I can't imagine he's overjoyed at having to make life even harder for them.
Little John
Posts: 8700
Joined: Sat Mar 08, 2008 12:07 am
Location: UK

Post by Little John »

They didn't vote for him or the Tories. They voted for Brexit. They voted for Brexit via the Tories and Johnson because the Left is eating itself. Johnson is likely to also betray them on Brexit, of course. But, that is a story yet to fully unfold.
RevdTess
Posts: 2983
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2005 11:09 am
Location: Newquay

Post by RevdTess »

Little John wrote:They didn't vote for him or the Tories. They voted for Brexit. They voted for Brexit via the Tories and Johnson because the Left is eating itself. Johnson is likely to also betray them on Brexit, of course. But, that is a story yet to fully unfold.
Agreed.

Hard to imagine Johnson doesn't realise this, but I've given up trying to understand how he thinks.
Locked