EU immigration row / time to get out

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AndySir
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Post by AndySir »

UndercoverElephant wrote:
No it hasn't. Poll after poll, as well as anecdotal accounts of what politicians hear on doorsteps, tells us that immigration is the number one concern of the people of the UK (on average). It's more important than the economy, more important than health and education, more important than policing and more important than defence.
Here's some actual polls. From this April, immigration 2nd behind the economy.

http://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpubli ... lery[m]/0/

From 1996, just before the first general election after Maastrict

http://www.ipsos-mori.com/researchpubli ... -1996.aspx

EU / Common market way down at 15% as the most important issue.

Despite your noise on the subject, immigration was so low on your priority list you voted for a pro-immigration party. There are a plethora of anti-EU parties which might better reflect your views - no2EU perhaps? Democratic mandate is given in general elections, not polls, and the people of the UK have voted for parties which supported opening the borders for 20 years. Only now does that look likely to change, but that is not 'permission has not been given' it is 'permission may be withdrawn'.
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jonny2mad
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Post by jonny2mad »

biffvernon wrote:
UndercoverElephant wrote: I DO want my fears about immigration to be taken VERY SERIOUSLY.
Confront your fears; embrace with love. Who is your brother? A political, economic or climate refugee or the locals who think like j2m?

By the way, and way off topic, but maybe there is a connection - has anyone been watching the TV programmes about the favelas in Rio on Tuesday evenings? There's been two out of a series of three so far. It raises some interesting questions about population density, why, in a very large country with a low average density, so many people squeeze themselves onto a tiny area of ridiculously inhospitable hillside and live a life of laughter, song and dance in conditions that make the the worst corners of deprivation in Britain appear as the height of luxury. The narration of this documentary brings a wonderfully dry sense of humour and cynicism. Quite unusual for television.
Your not my brother but to the refugee your no brother either, your a mark a useful idiot. The fool who opens the castle gate and then seems surprised when he gets slaughtered or led off as a slave.

Why would the man who got the death fatwa put on salman rushdie help to found the main anti fascist organistaion in this country ?

He wants his bros to keep coming in, and the white liberal fools who march with him are just marks
"What causes more suffering in the world than the stupidity of the compassionate?"Friedrich Nietzsche

optimism is cowardice oswald spengler
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biffvernon
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Post by biffvernon »

jonny2mad wrote: Your not my brother
I'm not your brother and you're not my brother. I'm sure that the immigrant Salman Rushdie, knows the difference, since his command of the English language is second to none, despite being born in Bombay into a Muslim family of Kashmiri descent. Top bloke.

Do you remember the last chapter of The Satanic Verses? The prophesies of immigration into Europe are perceptive.
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jonny2mad
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Post by jonny2mad »

It's a long time since I read it so no I dont remember it.
"What causes more suffering in the world than the stupidity of the compassionate?"Friedrich Nietzsche

optimism is cowardice oswald spengler
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biffvernon
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Post by biffvernon »

There's an apostrophe in don't.
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jonny2mad
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Post by jonny2mad »

:shock: Good to know :shock:
"What causes more suffering in the world than the stupidity of the compassionate?"Friedrich Nietzsche

optimism is cowardice oswald spengler
Little John
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Post by Little John »

biffvernon wrote:There's an apostrophe in don't.
That really is f***ing pathetic. Pack it in.
extractorfan
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Post by extractorfan »

stevecook172001 wrote:
biffvernon wrote:There's an apostrophe in don't.
That really is ******* pathetic. Pack it in.
I thought it was funny, I think it was meant to be funny.
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emordnilap
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Post by emordnilap »

extractorfan wrote:
stevecook172001 wrote:
biffvernon wrote:There's an apostrophe in don't.
That really is ******* pathetic. Pack it in.
I thought it was funny, I think it was meant to be funny.
Yes, raised a chuckle.
I experience pleasure and pains, and pursue goals in service of them, so I cannot reasonably deny the right of other sentient agents to do the same - Steven Pinker
Little John
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Post by Little John »

I thought it was funny, I think it was meant to be funny.
No it wasn't. Following on from his immediately previous post, it was the usual smug tone taken by Biff Vernon and was designed to imply stupidity on the part of the person to whom it was responding and, in doing so, summarily dismiss all content of that person's post without actually having to address any of it. I say this completely irrespective of whether or not I agree with said content which, in the case of J2M. I almost invariably and often vociferously don't.

I know supercilious smart-arse when I see it and, when it comes to a significant number of Biff Vernon’s posts on certain topics, I see it regularly.
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UndercoverElephant
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Post by UndercoverElephant »

AndySir wrote:
Despite your noise on the subject, immigration was so low on your priority list you voted for a pro-immigration party.
Gross over-simplification/misrepresentation. Who I voted for said nothing about how low on my priority list immigration is. How I voted was dependent on what sort of elections they were and who had a chance of winning in those seats. Just because I voted Green it does not mean I agree with everything they say, and the same is true of most of the people who voted UKIP. Why on earth should somebody who is against the UK being in the EU also want maternity leave abolished? There is no connection between these things.
There are a plethora of anti-EU parties which might better reflect your views - no2EU perhaps?
Sure, it I wanted to "waste" my vote on a protest.
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AndySir
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Post by AndySir »

UndercoverElephant wrote: Sure, it I wanted to "waste" my vote on a protest.
Indeed, so you compromised - you exchanged immigration for a greater chance at representation at the issues that were most important to you (it was a local issue IIRC). That does not alter the fact that you stood up, in the only place it counts, and voted for open borders. Do NOT now come crying and wailing that the government do not have your permission because you had you fingers crossed when you did it.
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UndercoverElephant
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Post by UndercoverElephant »

AndySir wrote:
UndercoverElephant wrote: Sure, it I wanted to "waste" my vote on a protest.
Indeed, so you compromised - you exchanged immigration for a greater chance at representation at the issues that were most important to you
No. I exchanged immigration for a party whose other policies I was more in agreement with. It's not that those other things were more important than immigration, but that there were lots of them. Immigration is very important, but it is only one thing.
That does not alter the fact that you stood up, in the only place it counts, and voted for open borders.
Nope. I voted for a candidate, not a policy.
Do NOT now come crying and wailing that the government do not have your permission because you had you fingers crossed when you did it.
It wasn't even a national election, so it has nothing to do with what the government does. And in the national election I'll be voting labour, because I live in a straight tory/labour marginal and I don't want to see a tory majority at Westminster.

You can oversimplify this all you like and it will never be anything more than an oversimplification. The truth is this: there are people right across the political spectrum who are worried about immigration, but the fact that only parties on the far right are willing to do anything about it means that those far right parties are gaining a disproportionate amount of support. In other words, because people like you and Biff Vernon are making sure the mainstream parties don't act to sort out the immigration problem, you're increasing the power of a party full of climate skeptics, holocaust deniers, maternity-leave abolishers and [insert latest UKIP insanity here].

You are busy trying to refute my arguments here, with continual oversimplifications and misrepresentations. Back out there in world of real politics, UKIP and the Front National are laughing. Jonny2Mad is laughing. He sees you and BiffVernon and says "Thanks, you idiots, you're driving more and more people into the arms of the right wing parties I want to see in power."
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AndySir
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Post by AndySir »

[quote="UndercoverElephant]The truth is this: there are people right across the political spectrum who are worried about immigration, but the fact that only parties on the far right are willing to do anything about it means that those far right parties are gaining a disproportionate amount of support. [/quote]

No. There are parties on the left who are willing to 'do something about it'. We just talked about one - no2EU. The fact that these parties are electoral no-hopers simply reflects the fact that socialism and anti-immigration tend not to be found together. Workers of the world unite and all that.

If there really was significant anti-immigration feeling across the political spectrum we would expect to see that taken advantage of either by a mainstream party or some of the anti-EU vote going to someone like no2EU. We don't, we see all the anti-immigration votes going to the right. Labour are hedging their bets because they still have a significant old Labour base who would be appalled by the idea. Face the fact that no-one is being driven to the right - they're flocking there of their own accord. This is something that seems to happen every time there's an economic meltdown, so we shouldn't be surprised by it in the least.
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jonny2mad
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Post by jonny2mad »

:shock: I am laughing but not because I want ukip or the bnp or the national front to come to power. I don't think any of them have a hope in hell of coming to power and even if they did it would do little good because other partys and the system would stop them changing things or even slowing things .

Nope what I think is more likely is that the traitors will carry on and make the situation worse, and europe will become more and more like haiti or somalia .

We will be more overpopulated, more splintered, we wont pull together because multi-racial multi-cultural societys dont pull together, normally they fall apart .

"ethnically homogeneous nations are better able to build public goods, are more democratic, less corrupt, have higher productivity and less inequality, are more trusting and care more for the disadvantaged, develop social and economic capital faster, have lower crime rates, are more resistant to external shocks, and are better global citizens, for example by giving more foreign aid. Moreover, they are less prone to civil war, the greatest source of violent death in the twentieth century"

Being diverse is not a strength its a weakness, biff and co have created the balkans, we are the balkans america is the balkans on a massive scale :D and I fully expect these balkans created by the fluffy to come to a worse end, because when yugoslavia tore apart it had other countrys to help with aid and military to slow the genocide we wont have that .

Ive advised people to read civil war 2 by thomas chittum even the introduction its on archive.org .... he fought in yugoslavia
"What causes more suffering in the world than the stupidity of the compassionate?"Friedrich Nietzsche

optimism is cowardice oswald spengler
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