UndercoverElephant wrote:If you think "traitor" is personal abuse, perhaps you shouldn't be so disloyal to people in your own country? You appear to be proud of it, so I'm not sure why you think it is "abuse."
Maybe this has been covered in the past, but I can't remember. biffvernon has, on many occasions, explained how he doesn't think there's anything particularly important about the nation state, as opposed to smaller political entities or larger ones. When in comes to freedom of movement why do you think the nation state is the important scale, against which there can't be any disloyalty - instead of smaller units like England or Sussex or larger units like Europe?
Because that is where most of the power lies.
Is there a concept of disloyalty to Sussex
Not really, no. Certainly not that can be acted upon, because "Sussex" does not exist at any electoral level, and even if it did then it wouldn't have any relevant powers.
Yes, in principle.
In my opinion whether we draw our personal lines at the county, country, nation state or Europe is subjective and very dependent on what we're talking about.
The fact that nation states are the most important level of power is not subjective.
It only makes sense to talk about CO2 at the global level and dog mess at the parish or county level.
Laws concerning dog mess could be enacted at a national level. As could, and do, laws about CO2.
So immigration? I can see arguments for having controls at the nation state level (as we have for non-Europeans) and European level. There's certainly no simple and obvious right answer.
Here is the key question Biff Vernon needs to answer:
What is the primary responsibility of the UK government?
(a) The well-being of the people of the UK.
(b) The well-being of everybody in the world.
As far as I am concerned, the only reasonable answer is (a). The government of the UK is elected by the people of the UK in order to serve the people of the UK. But from his posts, it is pretty obvious that Biff Vernon believes the primary responsibility of the government of the UK is to everybody, regardless of whether they are citizens of the UK or not. This is the root of this disagreement.