COP 17

RenewableCandy · Post by **RenewableCandy** » 07 Dec 2011, 18:14

My great aunt was a teacher

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 07 Dec 2011, 19:37

Clearly a better quality of teaching required in Sweat's area irrespective of numbers.

I guess pretty much every job today owes it's existence on our fossil fuel based wealth. Not sure quite what the point of the argument is though?

Yes, Ludwig, didn't you know we hunt in packs?

But let's get back to Durban and the COP17 where things seem a bit tetchy today: http://oneworldgroup.org/durban

Ludwig · Post by **Ludwig** » 07 Dec 2011, 21:48

biffvernon wrote: Clearly a better quality of teaching required in Sweat's area irrespective of numbers.

I guess pretty much every job today owes it's existence on our fossil fuel based wealth. Not sure quite what the point of the argument is though?

I suppose I was arguing that our concern for moral issues and equality and justice is largely a luxury afforded by fossil-fuel-generated affluence. Why was life so harsh for so many people in the past? It wasn't because their leaders were more evil than ours; it was because there weren't the resources to grant a nice life for everyone. Our leaders, or many of them, have been as vile as any human beings who ever lived, but that hasn't been a problem for us because they could fill their troughs while leaving a fair bit left over for the rest of us, buying themselves peace into the bargain.

In other words, I was disagreeing with your optimistic sentiments when you wrote,

Hmmm....if we look back over the last couple of thousand years of history I think there have been one or two shuffles is a good direction. I don't think I would choose to have lived in former times.

I would rather have lived in many other times and places than the ones I do. Or rather, the ones that may be coming. I dunno, maybe things will be fine after all, who knows, but logic suggests otherwise and the signs are hardly encouraging.

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 07 Dec 2011, 22:30

I wasn't talking about the future. Just suggesting that the last half century in Britain has been pretty good compared with the previous couple of thousand years. It's difficult of course because you don't miss what you don't know. I don't suppose many folk in the medieval days thought "Chilly tonight, such a shame I don't have an electric blanket".

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 08 Dec 2011, 14:05

And in Durban,

a young New Jersey resident - Abigail Borah - was ejected for shouting out a prepared speech from the back of the plenary just as U.S. lead negotiator Todd Stern was about to begin speaking.

She said:

"I am speaking on behalf of the United States of America because my negotiators cannot. The obstructionist Congress has shackled justice and delayed ambition for far too long. I am scared for my future. 2020 is too late to wait. We need an urgent path to a fair ambitious and legally binding treaty. You must take responsibility to act now, or you will threaten the lives of youth and the world's most vulnerable. You must set aside partisan politics and let science dictate decisions. You must pledge ambitious targets to lower emissions not expectations. Citizens across the world are being held hostage by stillborn negotiations. We need leaders who will commit to real change, not empty rhetoric. Keep your promises. Keep our hope alive. 2020 is too late to wait."

From the monitors around the conference center, Borah's speech could not be heard -- the camera stayed on Stern, who stood silently at the dais, waiting. Applause was heard from outside the plenary after Borah finished.

sweat · Post by **sweat** » 08 Dec 2011, 20:36

biffvernon wrote: Clearly a better quality of teaching required in Sweat's area irrespective of numbers.

I guess pretty much every job today owes it's existence on our fossil fuel based wealth. Not sure quite what the point of the argument is though?

Yes, Ludwig, didn't you know we hunt in packs?

But let's get back to Durban and the COP17 where things seem a bit tetchy today: http://oneworldgroup.org/durban

I haven't had the benefit of much education, no. I see you understood what i said despite this, don't let that get in the way of your sniping.

Lord Beria3 · Post by **Lord Beria3** » 08 Dec 2011, 21:05

Its a interesting question.

You could argue that life was much better as a Roman Britain than for most of the Dark Ages that followed the collapse of the Roman Empire until the 17th/18th century really.

There are certainly societies (like the ancient Petran society where slavery and servants were banned, even for the kings!), where I could imagine were quite nice and if you were a well-off male than Athens at its height would have been a good and interesting place to have been. Spending my time at the forum in a direct democracy sounds good to me!

So its all relative actually.

PS_RalphW · Post by **PS_RalphW** » 09 Dec 2011, 09:28

Roman society was profoundly violent and cruel.

They invented the middle class, but they also had slaves and gladiators.

The 'dark ages' probably improved the lot of the poor, by making society more egalitarian again.

The Normans were quite brutal, disrupting society in reintroducing widespread slavery, but by the 13th century society was settling down nicely.

The 18th century was very disruptive again, with enclosure and industrialisation dislodging cottage industries, and generating dreadful conditions for the poor. It wasn't until well into the 19th century that conditions really improved.

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 09 Dec 2011, 12:10

The great difficulty is in determining the general happiness of a population at any historical time.

Blue Peter · Post by **Blue Peter** » 09 Dec 2011, 12:20

biffvernon wrote:The great difficulty is in determining the general happiness of a population at any historical time.

As I said in the other thread, I think that happiness per se is relative, and thus probably relatively constant. I think that more objective measures (health, food, heating, etc.), which, on reflection, is probably what a happiness index refers to, as opposed to actually whether I'm happy or not, can probably be estimated quite well,

Peter.

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 09 Dec 2011, 18:40

But let's stay focussed on COP17 where some folk are getting quite cross.

http://oneworldgroup.org/durban

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 09 Dec 2011, 21:56

The draft document has been rejected outright by a lot of countries and has gone back to President for re-drafting. today was supposed to be final day but they will be working through the night with plenary reconvening tomorrow mid-morning. Seems preparations for carrying on till 6pm are underway.

US is alligning with China and India to block global warming agreement.

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 10 Dec 2011, 08:38

Alessandro Vitelli, of Bloomberg News wrote:And there were journalists living down in the carpark below, keeping watch over their screens by night. / An angel of the Secretariat appeared to them, and the glory of the Convention shone around them, and they were exhausted. / But the angel said to them, "Stay alert. I bring you off-the-record briefings of great texts that will be for all Parties. / Today in the town of Durban a Mandate has been born to you; it is Such a Mess. / This will be a sign to you: you will find a negotiator from the ALBA group wrapped in a beach towel." / Suddenly a great company of the delegates appeared with the angel, praising Christiana and saying / Glory to COP in the highest, and in Plenary Baobab, peace on earth to NGOs on whom his favor rests.

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 10 Dec 2011, 08:43

Live blogs today at
http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2 ... cop17-live
and
http://oneworldgroup.org/durban

biffvernon · Post by **biffvernon** » 10 Dec 2011, 08:53

someone tweeted:
Eurosceptic MPs now urging PM to withdraw UK from Earth's atmosphere to avoid global climate change treaty. #COP17 #PuttingBritainFirst