Are you prepared for disaster?

What changes can we make to our lives to deal with the economic and energy crises ahead? Have you already started making preparations? Got tips to share?

Moderator: Peak Moderation

vtsnowedin
Posts: 6596
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:14 pm
Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

Post by vtsnowedin »

kenneal - lagger wrote:IBC containers of 1000ltr or 1200 ltr are the cheapest option. Black is best for above ground storage and white for dug in below ground but you can get away with white above ground. You'll get some algal growth but we haven't found it a great problem.

If you are going to bury them we've found that filling them with water and then backfilling around them with soil is OK without using concrete lining as long as the water table is below the container. If the water table is above about quarter way up the container you would be advised to concrete the thing in as if you empty it with water around it it might float and pop out of the ground. You would need soil or concrete over the top to weigh it down.

You need to form a reinforced concrete cover to it with a manhole for access. If it's only pedestrian access 12mm rebars at 150 centres in a 150 slab with 50mm cover to the steel should last for ever although you could get away with less steel.
Another option in high water table conditions is steel straps over the tank anchored into dead-man concrete blocks or a slab of sufficient weight in the unlikely event of it being empty at the time of a flood. But think about it! If your empty water tank pops to the surface during a flood event what harm can it do? And if you did not have it full, How lousey a planner and survivor are you?
kenneal - lagger
Site Admin
Posts: 12604
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 2:35 am
Location: Newbury, Berkshire
Contact:

Post by kenneal - lagger »

In use such a tank can be expected to be emptied, or nearly emptied, on occasions.
Action is the antidote to despair - Joan Baez
User avatar
emordnilap
Posts: 14636
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2007 4:36 pm
Location: here

Post by emordnilap »

kenneal - lagger wrote:In use such a tank can be expected to be emptied, or nearly emptied, on occasions.
Yup. Here in rainy Ireland, our below-ground tanks are often empty (and often overflowing...) - fun.
I experience pleasure and pains, and pursue goals in service of them, so I cannot reasonably deny the right of other sentient agents to do the same - Steven Pinker
vtsnowedin
Posts: 6596
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:14 pm
Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

Post by vtsnowedin »

kenneal - lagger wrote:In use such a tank can be expected to be emptied, or nearly emptied, on occasions.
Yes but usually in the driest times of the year when the water table is the lowest. Unless you live in a swamp the earth cover is sufficient. If it is empty at the start of a rain storm the collection pipes should have it filled before the ground gets saturated from above.
My brother used to deliver new underground fuel tanks to gas stations. They often had a set of straps shipped with them if the tank was to be outside a paved area. They don't cost much to install and certainly do no harm.
User avatar
mr brightside
Posts: 235
Joined: Fri Apr 01, 2011 8:02 am
Location: On the fells

Post by mr brightside »

kenneal - lagger wrote:IBC containers of 1000ltr or 1200 ltr are the cheapest option. Black is best for above ground storage and white for dug in below ground but you can get away with white above ground. You'll get some algal growth but we haven't found it a great problem.

If you are going to bury them we've found that filling them with water and then backfilling around them with soil is OK without using concrete lining as long as the water table is below the container. If the water table is above about quarter way up the container you would be advised to concrete the thing in as if you empty it with water around it it might float and pop out of the ground. You would need soil or concrete over the top to weigh it down.

You need to form a reinforced concrete cover to it with a manhole for access. If it's only pedestrian access 12mm rebars at 150 centres in a 150 slab with 50mm cover to the steel should last for ever although you could get away with less steel.
Thanks, Ken. I'm well above the water table. Buy new to avoid contamination?
Persistence of habitat, is the fundamental basis of persistence of a species.
woodburner
Posts: 4127
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 10:45 pm

Post by woodburner »

New = lots of fresh plasticiser will leach into the first few tanks full. :evil: Maybe used is not so bad. Try http://www.dvcontainers.co.uk/category.asp?catID=5
To become an extremist, hang around with people you agree with. Cass Sunstein
User avatar
emordnilap
Posts: 14636
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2007 4:36 pm
Location: here

Post by emordnilap »

This is quite a good article, with useful lists further down if you skip the Ireland-specific earlier section.

A Changing World – Coping in a crisis
Perhaps the bigger the crisis is the more chance we have of reshaping or building a better system altogether? Filling in the cracks just props up the toxic system. Letting it crumble and collapse could be pretty painful – it would involve a grieving process.
I experience pleasure and pains, and pursue goals in service of them, so I cannot reasonably deny the right of other sentient agents to do the same - Steven Pinker
woodburner
Posts: 4127
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 10:45 pm

Post by woodburner »

If you can't lay your hands on most of that now, it's going to be a hell of a job to start from scratch if you are still having to work for a living. As for the reliance on masses of carbohydrates, that will give people health problems as now, but there won't be the support services to deal with it. Not that there would be many of the present troubles if it were not for the big industries' pedalling of the only way is carbs.
To become an extremist, hang around with people you agree with. Cass Sunstein
vtsnowedin
Posts: 6596
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:14 pm
Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

Post by vtsnowedin »

Not a disaster but just the usual thing you have to deal with. Snow on the ground for Thanksgiving? As A kid I always wondered about what the big deal was with a white Christmas. I'd never seen a green thanksgiving.
The climate may be toes up in other places but it is right on the historic schedule here.
Image
User avatar
PS_RalphW
Posts: 5914
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2005 11:09 am
Location: Cambridge

Post by PS_RalphW »

The arctic cold has been shifted this year over Siberia. They have had record snowfall.
vtsnowedin
Posts: 6596
Joined: Fri Jan 07, 2011 10:14 pm
Location: New England ,Chelsea Vermont

Post by vtsnowedin »

Tiksi Russia in central Siberia is at -32 C and is expected to stay that cold for at least the next 15 days. Alert Canada is at -23C. Perhaps the arctic warm spell is over.
https://weather.com/weather/tenday/l/RSXX1625:1:RS
snow hope
Posts: 4101
Joined: Thu Nov 24, 2005 11:09 am
Location: outside Belfast, N Ireland

Post by snow hope »

Cooler than recent years in my region - have has a very frosty November in N Ireland.
Real money is gold and silver
kenneal - lagger
Site Admin
Posts: 12604
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 2:35 am
Location: Newbury, Berkshire
Contact:

Post by kenneal - lagger »

woodburner wrote:If you can't lay your hands on most of that now, it's going to be a hell of a job to start from scratch if you are still having to work for a living. As for the reliance on masses of carbohydrates, that will give people health problems as now, but there won't be the support services to deal with it. Not that there would be many of the present troubles if it were not for the big industries' pedalling of the only way is carbs.
In a survival situation people are going to be burning nearer 5k calories per day than the 2k to 2.5k that they burn today so the greater calorie intake would not cause so many health problems. Whether those extra calories should come from fat, protein or carbs I don't know.

By the way, I agree with you about the new versus old IBC question. The best thing is to know the source of your container. If it comes from a food factory or was a detergent container, as most of mine are, you're on fairly safe ground.
Action is the antidote to despair - Joan Baez
User avatar
emordnilap
Posts: 14636
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2007 4:36 pm
Location: here

Post by emordnilap »

It has been said that a field worker in Ireland, pre-famine, would consume around 4,000-5,000 calories daily, mainly from spuds. Doesn't say much about longevity but if combined modern health information and techniques... :lol:
I experience pleasure and pains, and pursue goals in service of them, so I cannot reasonably deny the right of other sentient agents to do the same - Steven Pinker
woodburner
Posts: 4127
Joined: Mon Apr 06, 2009 10:45 pm

Post by woodburner »

All calories are not the same. Carbohydrates are the reason so many people today are obese and/or suffer from diabetes.

Arctic and antarctic explorers carried pemmican (high fat content) they didn't rely on carbohydrates. That needs too much on site preparation and needs water adding in most cases.
To become an extremist, hang around with people you agree with. Cass Sunstein
Post Reply