Deep Adaptation forum

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BritDownUnder
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Post by BritDownUnder »

I think there may be problems if the Deep Adaptation is only carried out by an affluent elite and the general public is not brought along. At what point does an eco hamlet with safety in numbers become a survivalist enclave?
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UndercoverElephant
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Post by UndercoverElephant »

BritDownUnder wrote:I think there may be problems if the Deep Adaptation is only carried out by an affluent elite and the general public is not brought along. At what point does an eco hamlet with safety in numbers become a survivalist enclave?
I honestly believe that law and order will be one of the last things to go, just as it is one of the first things to get set up. The affluent elite can't survive very well in survivalist enclaves either. They will need their property rights defended by law.
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Post by vtsnowedin »

UndercoverElephant wrote:
BritDownUnder wrote:I think there may be problems if the Deep Adaptation is only carried out by an affluent elite and the general public is not brought along. At what point does an eco hamlet with safety in numbers become a survivalist enclave?
I honestly believe that law and order will be one of the last things to go, just as it is one of the first things to get set up. The affluent elite can't survive very well in survivalist enclaves either. They will need their property rights defended by law.
Or their armed guards.
The elite of the elite will set up their "eco hamlets" in places where it is both legal and possible to defend your self and property with lethal force. So that leaves all the UK out of the running.
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Post by kenneal - lagger »

BritDownUnder wrote:I think there may be problems if the Deep Adaptation is only carried out by an affluent elite and the general public is not brought along. At what point does an eco hamlet with safety in numbers become a survivalist enclave?
I'm not selling my eco hamlet to a wealthy "elite" (I hate that use of the word) because a wealthy "elite" would expect me to do all the work. I'm selling it to people who want to work and they're going to have to pass a practical interview before they get a chance to buy into a self build project. I can't see a wealthy "elite" person/couple wanting to get their hands dirty on a self build project not on the sort of plot and house size that I am proposing. In order to get the right people I am quite happy to do an equity share on the land cost so I am going to make sure that I get the right sort of person involved in the first place.

I am also aware that a survivalist enclave can't work so I am working on the local area becoming a survivalist enclave as well through greening the district council as much as possible. We have quite a strong green movement locally which is fighting the council all the way to get some movement. And that movement seems to be on its way.
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Post by vtsnowedin »

kenneal - lagger wrote:
BritDownUnder wrote:I think there may be problems if the Deep Adaptation is only carried out by an affluent elite and the general public is not brought along. At what point does an eco hamlet with safety in numbers become a survivalist enclave?
I'm not selling my eco hamlet to a wealthy "elite" (I hate that use of the word) because a wealthy "elite" would expect me to do all the work. I'm selling it to people who want to work and they're going to have to pass a practical interview before they get a chance to buy into a self build project. I can't see a wealthy "elite" person/couple wanting to get their hands dirty on a self build project not on the sort of plot and house size that I am proposing. In order to get the right people I am quite happy to do an equity share on the land cost so I am going to make sure that I get the right sort of person involved in the first place.

I am also aware that a survivalist enclave can't work so I am working on the local area becoming a survivalist enclave as well through greening the district council as much as possible. We have quite a strong green movement locally which is fighting the council all the way to get some movement. And that movement seems to be on its way.
You are trying to dictate rules and conditions to the rich and powerful. Do you really think that is going to work?
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Post by Catweazle »

kenneal - lagger wrote:I hope to attract a group of people of varying abilities to make the eco hamlet as self self sufficient as possible in a future where who knows how long our current level of civilisation will last. Having a group who are prepared for such a future in a local area which is also prepared to an extent can only make chances of survival better. That's in theory anyway!!
Even if people leave and are replaced, as is likely to happen, you can be happy that you have sent "seeds" out, that will germinate when needed.
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Post by stumuz1 »

vtsnowedin wrote: The elite of the elite will set up their "eco hamlets" in places where it is both legal and possible to defend your self and property with lethal force. So that leaves all the UK out of the running.
So what's the end game when your protagonists have just as good/amount/willing to use weapons as you do?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhsGrnvyT_4
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Post by vtsnowedin »

stumuz1 wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote: The elite of the elite will set up their "eco hamlets" in places where it is both legal and possible to defend your self and property with lethal force. So that leaves all the UK out of the running.
So what's the end game when your protagonists have just as good/amount/willing to use weapons as you do?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhsGrnvyT_4
Being in a dug in defensive position aided by security cameras you have the advantage. But like any other battle the outcome is in doubt until the fighting is actually over.
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Post by kenneal - lagger »

vtsnowedin wrote:..................You are trying to dictate rules and conditions to the rich and powerful. Do you really think that is going to work?
Working at local government level in the UK you can get quite a lot done on the Green/Eco front as not many people usually vote so a few green minded voters can have a lot of influence.

As to my eco hamlet I get to chose who buys into the scheme initially so I can decide whether or not any rich and powerful people get a place. With what I'm offering I don't think anyone rich and powerful would be interested. As for later sales there will be a clause in the contract to say that anyone buying in would have to be interviewed and approved by the community to keep the ethos of the community going.

Once things really go down the pan the concept of buying and selling homes would go out the window I would think.
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Post by Potemkin Villager »

kenneal - lagger wrote:
Once things really go down the pan the concept of buying and selling homes would go out the window I would think.
Oh dear me, what on earth are all those estate agents, sign manufacturers, surveyors, mortgage brokers and of course those wonderful solicitors etc etc going to do with themselves? :cry:

What you are proposing sounds very much like an end of the world commune by any other name Ken! The last one of those I came across in the middle of the nuclearmageddon 80s, was the unforgettable Atlantis on the Island of Innisfree. They practiced Primal Therapy and a lot of curious backpackers had to be rescued from them. Colloquially they were referred to as "The Screamers"!
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Post by kenneal - lagger »

All I'm proposing is a bunch of ordinary people, no hippies thank you, growing their own food, providing their own energy and making much of the other stuff that they need. The interest that I have had has come from ordinary working people although I do know quite a few "hippy" or "new age" types. The other stuff needed would reduce drastically over time as people realised what is really essential in life.

I would expect that someone would have to learn blacksmithing pretty quickly at some time and the feedstock would be recycled car bits. Glassware and flat glass making might be another thing to learn using again recycled car bits and old windows from abandoned houses.

Getting into real doomer territory here!
Action is the antidote to despair - Joan Baez
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Post by adam2 »

Small scale glass making is harder than it sounds as a extremely high temperature is needed. This needs sophisticated furnaces and a great deal of fuel.
Modern float glass is a low priced commodity, but very hard to replicate without a lot of technology.
After any major collapse I would expect that a lot of pre-existing glass from vehicles would be re-purposed for windows in dwellings. Such glass is toughened or laminated and much stronger than ordinary window glass.

BASIC blacksmiths work is relatively easy, I have done it without any formal training or instruction.
Building a forge is MUCH simpler than building a glassworks.
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Post by vtsnowedin »

Considering how much glass of all sizes and thicknesses is out there I can't imagine a time when it would not be easier to re purpose some old glass then to try to melt and create new sheets. As to blacksmithing there is also plenty of steel in the junk yards that is of much higher quality then the wrought iron traditional blacksmiths worked with. What you would need is a good welding process to weld parts together along with means to cut steel pieces as needed and if you get down to it a metal lathe and a milling machine to make any stock into the desired shape complete with threads as needed.
You are not going to get by with just a forge and an anvil and a bunch of hammers.
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Post by Catweazle »

kenneal - lagger wrote:I would expect that someone would have to learn blacksmithing pretty quickly
If you don't already have an anvil I'd suggest you get one sooner rather than later. There are many ASO's available ( Anvil Shaped Objects ) from China, but they're cast iron and useless. Genuine new hardened steel anvils are still made for farriers, but they are on the small side and extremely expensive.

Buy an old, unrestored, London pattern anvil somewhere over 100kg as a general purpose workhorse. Bigger is better, you can fit smaller tools into the hardy hole to do fine work on a big anvil, but not the other way around.

My anvil is over 230kg, that's a good size for reducing large lumps of recovered steel to more useful sizes or for flattening large lumps into spades / plough shares / discs / machetes / axes etc.
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Post by kenneal - lagger »

Thanks, Cat. I've been looking out for a proper anvil for a while now but it will probably have to wait until I start selling off plots due to the cost. I've got a very small one which comes in handy on occasion but would be no good for serious metal work.
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