Die-off

Forum for general discussion of Peak Oil / Oil depletion; also covering related subjects

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vtsnowedin
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Post by vtsnowedin »

biffvernon wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote: begins at birth but that grants you Life Liberty and the pursuit of happiness. It dose not provide you with food shelter, income or happiness. For those you must look to your parents until you can pursue them yourself.
In Europe we have developed a more enlightened view of the functions of state.
It will not be deemed enlightened if it ultimately leads to the bankruptcy and collapse of Europe.
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Post by kenneal - lagger »

vtsnowedin wrote:... I'm supporting enough of these deadbeats .............
So someone who was quite happily working hard at his/her job but suddenly finds, along with a few hundred others locally, that job moved to China by their employers is a dead beat because of something that is completely out of their control? If a few hundred of you work mates are also in the same situation it's likely to be very difficult to get a job locally.

What if a recession caused by a load of dishonest *ankers in Wall Street closes your car factory? Are you a deadbeat because you can't find a job along with a million of your fellow citizens?

Christian America!! The land of the Free!!
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vtsnowedin
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Post by vtsnowedin »

kenneal - lagger wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote:... I'm supporting enough of these deadbeats .............
So someone who was quite happily working hard at his/her job but suddenly finds, along with a few hundred others locally, that job moved to China by their employers is a dead beat because of something that is completely out of their control? If a few hundred of you work mates are also in the same situation it's likely to be very difficult to get a job locally.

What if a recession caused by a load of dishonest *ankers in Wall Street closes your car factory? Are you a deadbeat because you can't find a job along with a million of your fellow citizens?

Christian America!! The land of the Free!!
Well of course not everyone receiving benefits is a deadbeat. It is the ones that sit for years on it and make no effort to be self supporting that earn the name. But a Palestinian living in Gaza that has never had a job but nonetheless had his wife push out seven children to be raised and radicalized in that hell hole gets the same name.
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Post by kenneal - lagger »

I would suggest that the number of actual deadbeats who are real benefit scroungers in the US and the UK is far less than the number of Kleptocrats who fiddle their taxes, pay the politicians to ensure that they get tax relief on their businesses and pay pitifully low, often starvation wages. In the UK if American companies like Starbucks and DODGY TAX AVOIDERS paid the true level of taxation that their profits warranted we could all live quite happily without any austerity needed whatsoever! As it is they are parasites feeding off the British economy using their low taxed profits to undercut and undermine British businesses that do pay their full taxes.

What goes on in Palestine is not relevant to my posts as far as i can see.
Action is the antidote to despair - Joan Baez
vtsnowedin
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Post by vtsnowedin »

kenneal - lagger wrote:I would suggest that the number of actual deadbeats who are real benefit scroungers in the US and the UK is far less than the number of Kleptocrats who fiddle their taxes, pay the politicians to ensure that they get tax relief on their businesses and pay pitifully low, often starvation wages. In the UK if American companies like Starbucks and DODGY TAX AVOIDERS paid the true level of taxation that their profits warranted we could all live quite happily without any austerity needed whatsoever! As it is they are parasites feeding off the British economy using their low taxed profits to undercut and undermine British businesses that do pay their full taxes.

What goes on in Palestine is not relevant to my posts as far as i can see.
One percenters are by definition just one percent of the population so in the USA 3.34 million people and not all of them would be deemed kleptocrats if fully examined. Compare that to 45 million drawing food stamps and the 93 million not in the labor force and you will have a hard time convincing any one that there are less then 3.34 million dead beats among them.
Palestine is just one of the sources of new refugees. Any slum will do.
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frank_begbie
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Post by frank_begbie »

To my way of thinking its the people on low wages or benefits that are saving the planet.

More money just means more consumption, which we could do without.

I'm doing my bit. 8)
"In the beginning of a change, the patriot is a scarce man, brave, hated, and scorned. When his cause succeeds however, the timid join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot."
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biffvernon
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Post by biffvernon »

frank_begbie wrote:To my way of thinking its the people on low wages or benefits that are saving the planet.

More money just means more consumption, which we could do without.
Exactly so. The 'deadbeats' of which vt speaks are the true righteous of this world as they are not destroying it. Disposable income is probably a better measure of carbon footprint that you get from the various surveys that supposedly calculate one's impact.
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Post by Little John »

Yep, go to any low waged council estate full of skint folk and you will find the greenest people in the country.
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Post by kenneal - lagger »

As Peter Harper, one of the founders of CAT, often said, "It's easier for a rich man to pass through the eye of a needle than for him to live a green lifestyle."
Action is the antidote to despair - Joan Baez
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biffvernon
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Post by biffvernon »

Dale Vince might be cited as the exception to prove the rule, an immensely rich man almost all of whose wealth is invested in the hardware of windfarms but used a bit left over to promote electric cars and veggie-burgers at a football ground.
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Post by Little John »

biffvernon wrote:Dale Vince might be cited as the exception to prove the rule, an immensely rich man almost all of whose wealth is invested in the hardware of windfarms but used a bit left over to promote electric cars and veggie-burgers at a football ground.
Yes, more "sustainable development" designed to encourage us all to consume the "right" kind of "green" technologies. That's our saviour isn't it.

You really believe that don't you Biff.
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Post by vtsnowedin »

biffvernon wrote:
frank_begbie wrote:To my way of thinking its the people on low wages or benefits that are saving the planet.

More money just means more consumption, which we could do without.
Exactly so. The 'deadbeats' of which vt speaks are the true righteous of this world as they are not destroying it. Disposable income is probably a better measure of carbon footprint that you get from the various surveys that supposedly calculate one's impact.
You would have to look at the source of the income. A poor person that works and supports themselves then yes but a true deadbeat living on the dole has some tax payer or several out there working extra hours and driving further to work so that the top third of their income can be ripped away from them to pay the deadbeats bills. So a third of my energy use is really on the governments' and the deadbeats' carbon footprint not mine.
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Post by Little John »

vtsnowedin wrote: You would have to look at the source of the income. A poor person that works and supports themselves then yes but a true deadbeat living on the dole has some tax payer or several out there working extra hours and driving further to work so that the top third of their income can be ripped away from them to pay the deadbeats bills. So a third of my energy use is really on the governments' and the deadbeats' carbon footprint not mine.
Yes, "deadbeats" who consume the least and have the least power in society. They are your enemy aren't they.

You really believe that don't you VT.
vtsnowedin
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Post by vtsnowedin »

Little John wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote: You would have to look at the source of the income. A poor person that works and supports themselves then yes but a true deadbeat living on the dole has some tax payer or several out there working extra hours and driving further to work so that the top third of their income can be ripped away from them to pay the deadbeats bills. So a third of my energy use is really on the governments' and the deadbeats' carbon footprint not mine.
Yes, "deadbeats" who consume the least and have the least power in society. They are your enemy aren't they.

You really believe that don't you VT.
Not an enemy, just a burden the taxpayer should not have to bare.
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emordnilap
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Post by emordnilap »

Some people are easily taken in by tabloid lies. :roll:

Way, way more money, far more money than you can possibly imagine, is given in subsidies to corporations, enough money to support millions upon millions of so-called 'deadbeats'.

People who deliberately scrounge are known as lobbyists, bankers, corporate tax avoiders, fossil fuel extractors, anyone who takes advantage of such structures as schools, roads, hospitals, social systems, without paying for them. And trash the environment on top of that.
I experience pleasure and pains, and pursue goals in service of them, so I cannot reasonably deny the right of other sentient agents to do the same - Steven Pinker
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